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- #141
Crimea_River
Marshal
Tell ya what. You put a Recaro seat in your Macchi and I'll do my cowl in NMF.
**** DONE: GB-37 1/48 Bf109E-4B - Helicopters / Military a/c of BoB 1940 (1 Viewer)
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Tough one to decide....light overspray of 65 or NMF are the likely choices.....if they have a primary photo to work with...
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- #144
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks for the input guys. Wojtek, yes there might have been the extended yellow at some point but I can only assume that Kagero have noticed a different tone between the engine and gun cowls on their reference and that that's why they made it lighter.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Ah, I never thought of yellow !
It's possible that it was yellow, but showing as a slightly different tone, depending on the angle, lighting and highlights in what i presume was a B&W pic of the subject.
The pic concerned would need to be seen of course, before any opinion could be made properly.
I think I'd go with a light grey, as maybe this was a replacement part, 'primed' in the field ?
It's possible that it was yellow, but showing as a slightly different tone, depending on the angle, lighting and highlights in what i presume was a B&W pic of the subject.
The pic concerned would need to be seen of course, before any opinion could be made properly.
I think I'd go with a light grey, as maybe this was a replacement part, 'primed' in the field ?
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- #147
Crimea_River
Marshal
The closest relevant period pic I have seen so far is the one below. Unfortunately it doesn't show my aircraft but it is informative in showing how the Staffel did the heavy mottling. It looks to me like the crosses and "verschnupfte Rabe" emblem were roughly masked for the mottling and that the aircraft numbers were reapplied over the mottling. It also confirms the yellow only covers the engine cowl and doesn't include the MG17 access cowl.
I'm in touch with a local guy who may have more info on my Black 6 to help with the MG17 cowl colour. In the meantime, I repaired the rivets and reapplied the 65, then masked and sprayed the yellow. However, I just realized that I forgot to rescribe the cowl fastener so I will do that lightly with a scalpel cut into the paint.
I'm in touch with a local guy who may have more info on my Black 6 to help with the MG17 cowl colour. In the meantime, I repaired the rivets and reapplied the 65, then masked and sprayed the yellow. However, I just realized that I forgot to rescribe the cowl fastener so I will do that lightly with a scalpel cut into the paint.
turbo
Staff Sergeant
Looking good Andy. Hope you get to the bottom of the cowl colour (NMF, NMF, NMF...)
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Looking good Andy.
The extension of the yellow over the 'saddle' gun cowl was seen from around mid-September 1940, but not all JGs did this, and I'd need to check my references to see if this unit painted the extra yellow areas.
Pics of their Bf109s force-landed in England certainly show heavy mottling, some with slight overspray on the edges of the shield.
Note that the supercharger intake louvre and 'frame' were left in bare metal, I think steel - but you probably have that in hand.
The extension of the yellow over the 'saddle' gun cowl was seen from around mid-September 1940, but not all JGs did this, and I'd need to check my references to see if this unit painted the extra yellow areas.
Pics of their Bf109s force-landed in England certainly show heavy mottling, some with slight overspray on the edges of the shield.
Note that the supercharger intake louvre and 'frame' were left in bare metal, I think steel - but you probably have that in hand.
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- #151
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks guys.
Kirby:
Terry, the pic I posted is from 5/JG51, the same unit as my aircraft so no need to check on the "extension". The aircarft have already been converted over to the Jabo role so this would put the pic at September/October timerframe. At the moment, the intake grille has not been repainted. I will do this along with the exhausts.
Kirby:
Terry, the pic I posted is from 5/JG51, the same unit as my aircraft so no need to check on the "extension". The aircarft have already been converted over to the Jabo role so this would put the pic at September/October timerframe. At the moment, the intake grille has not been repainted. I will do this along with the exhausts.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
OK Andy. I had a quick look at JG51 from this period, and didn't find any pics showing the extended yellow area on the cowling.
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- #153
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks Terry.
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- #154
Crimea_River
Marshal
Splinter camo and mottling done. Started with masking the required areas and then splashing on the 02. The RLM 71, for which I used straight Tamiya XF61, was then applied freehand. The gun cowl issue is not yet resolved but at the moment it's staying 65. It's easy to mask and redo in NMF if Kirby wins. The edge behind the supercharger intake will need to be straightened in any event.
Busted off one of the flaps during handling but no big deal. It's back on now.
Busted off one of the flaps during handling but no big deal. It's back on now.
turbo
Staff Sergeant
Well, the seats in place...
so the NMF should be along real soon....
so the NMF should be along real soon....- Thread starter
- #158
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks guys. Actually I expect to have some pics of my rig along with an assessment of the cowl arriving in my email box today. Stay tuned.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Liking the look of that Andy, and looking forward to seeing the pics and info..
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- #160
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks Terry.
Well I have received the pic and it's very helpful, confirming a much lighter gun cowl. Unfortunately, I can not publish the pic unless I receive permission, which I am pursuing.
The picture was sent from my contact with the accompanying words:
Attached, please find a photo of that 109E from the 5./JG 51.
Not the best of images you'll agree but at least it does clearly show the lighter panel over the cowling MG 17s and the slogan beneath the cockpit. Since starting to look through my collection the other day I've had a phone chat with my friend who provided the image
and a couple of email exchanges with one of my German contacts to discuss the image; the consensus being that it is most likely 65 and either one 'straight off the stores shelf' or 'borrowed' from another aircraft/unit which used a very high demarcation between the lower and upper surface colours such as the III./JG 26 (see additional attached colour image). Although not visible in the JG 51 image, it is entirely possible that there was one of the upper colours along the top of the replacement cowling.
The image originates from the collection of German researcher Peter Petrick and has been published in one of the Battle of Britain volumes on the Jadgfliegerverbände by Jochen Prien which is where it is believed Kagero got their information for the profile. Also in regard to the camo finish Kagero give a good description of how the aircraft probably looked although it is next to impossible to determine if the dark green areas on the fuselage sides are RLM 70 or RLM 71.
Though Dave believes it to be possible that a high demarcation camouflaged replacement cowl is possible, I'm less inclined to believe this is the case here. All of the pics of aircraft with the high demarcation that I have seen have the green uppers on the gun cowl starting on a line that is essentially at the same level as the cockpit sill and the picture that he provided shows the light colour well above that and effectively covering the entire visible cowl. Even allowing for possible glare, I doubt that there is any green on the upper part of the cowl in the photograph. I've returned a question to Dave asking whether or not he or his contacts know if stocked gun cowls at this time were painted entirely 65. Not knowing any better, it seems plausible to me that all of the individual fuselage parts might have been painted 65 prior to final assembly and that the greens were applied once everything was buttoned up so that the demarcation lines matched. The oft-published photo below, though possibly colourized, seems to support this notion though the colour is more likely 76 given that these are later 109 models.
If that is the case, then it's very likely that a new stock cowl would have been present on this aircraft and that it would have been painted in 65 without green uppers until the unit decided to overpaint it. I'll let you know of the answer when I hear back.
In the meantime, looking more at my freehand camo, I may yet go over the edges again with a feathered mask as I'm not sure I'm 100% satisfied with the lines and also that I have them at the correct locations. I'll look into this more and report back soon.
Well I have received the pic and it's very helpful, confirming a much lighter gun cowl. Unfortunately, I can not publish the pic unless I receive permission, which I am pursuing.
The picture was sent from my contact with the accompanying words:
Attached, please find a photo of that 109E from the 5./JG 51.
Not the best of images you'll agree but at least it does clearly show the lighter panel over the cowling MG 17s and the slogan beneath the cockpit. Since starting to look through my collection the other day I've had a phone chat with my friend who provided the image
and a couple of email exchanges with one of my German contacts to discuss the image; the consensus being that it is most likely 65 and either one 'straight off the stores shelf' or 'borrowed' from another aircraft/unit which used a very high demarcation between the lower and upper surface colours such as the III./JG 26 (see additional attached colour image). Although not visible in the JG 51 image, it is entirely possible that there was one of the upper colours along the top of the replacement cowling.
The image originates from the collection of German researcher Peter Petrick and has been published in one of the Battle of Britain volumes on the Jadgfliegerverbände by Jochen Prien which is where it is believed Kagero got their information for the profile. Also in regard to the camo finish Kagero give a good description of how the aircraft probably looked although it is next to impossible to determine if the dark green areas on the fuselage sides are RLM 70 or RLM 71.
Though Dave believes it to be possible that a high demarcation camouflaged replacement cowl is possible, I'm less inclined to believe this is the case here. All of the pics of aircraft with the high demarcation that I have seen have the green uppers on the gun cowl starting on a line that is essentially at the same level as the cockpit sill and the picture that he provided shows the light colour well above that and effectively covering the entire visible cowl. Even allowing for possible glare, I doubt that there is any green on the upper part of the cowl in the photograph. I've returned a question to Dave asking whether or not he or his contacts know if stocked gun cowls at this time were painted entirely 65. Not knowing any better, it seems plausible to me that all of the individual fuselage parts might have been painted 65 prior to final assembly and that the greens were applied once everything was buttoned up so that the demarcation lines matched. The oft-published photo below, though possibly colourized, seems to support this notion though the colour is more likely 76 given that these are later 109 models.
If that is the case, then it's very likely that a new stock cowl would have been present on this aircraft and that it would have been painted in 65 without green uppers until the unit decided to overpaint it. I'll let you know of the answer when I hear back.
In the meantime, looking more at my freehand camo, I may yet go over the edges again with a feathered mask as I'm not sure I'm 100% satisfied with the lines and also that I have them at the correct locations. I'll look into this more and report back soon.
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