theres also a russian connection, has to do with Hartmann resigning his appointment with JG 53 in the west and going back to JG 52. He though the greatest threat to Germany survival at this time was the russians and wanted to continue fighting them. In a way, he was right.
Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?
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parsifal
Colonel
I thought perhaps we should look at the man as a pilot rather than the the organization that surrounded him.
This iss an excerpt of his training that I found
Hartmann began his military training on 1 October 1940 at the 10th Flying Regiment in Neukuhren. On 1 March 1941, he progressed to the Luftkriegsschule 2 in Berlin-Gatow, making his first flight with an instructor four days later, followed in just under three weeks by his first solo flight. He completed his basic flying training in October 1941 and began advanced flight training at pre-fighter school 2 in Lachen-Speyerdorf on 1 November 1941. There, Hartmann learned combat techniques and gunnery skills. His advanced pilot training was completed on 31 January 1942, and, between 1 March 1942 and 20 August 1942, he learned to fly the Messerschmitt Bf 109 at the Jagdfliegerschule 2 in Zerbst/Anhalt.
Hartmann's time as a trainee pilot did not always go smoothly. On 31 March 1942, during a gunnery training flight, he ignored regulations and performed some aerobatics in his Bf 109 over the Zerbst airfield. His punishment was a three-month period of confinement to quarters with the loss of ⅔ of his pay in fines. Hartmann later recalled that the incident saved his life:
That week confined to my room actually saved my life. I had been scheduled to go up on a gunnery flight the afternoon that I was confined. My roommate took the flight instead of me, in an aircraft I had been scheduled to fly. Shortly after he took off, while on his way to the gunnery range, he developed engine trouble and had to crash-land near the Hindenburg-Kattowitz railroad. He was killed in the crash.
Afterwards, Hartmann practiced hard. During a gunnery practice session in June 1942, he hit a target drogue with 24 of the allotted 50 rounds of machine-gun fire, a feat that was considered difficult to achieve. His training had qualified him to fly 17 different types of powered aircraft, and, following his graduation, he was posted on 21 August 1942 to Ergänzungs-Jagdgruppe Ost (Fighter Supply Group, East) in Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia, where he remained until 10 October 1942.
This iss an excerpt of his training that I found
Hartmann began his military training on 1 October 1940 at the 10th Flying Regiment in Neukuhren. On 1 March 1941, he progressed to the Luftkriegsschule 2 in Berlin-Gatow, making his first flight with an instructor four days later, followed in just under three weeks by his first solo flight. He completed his basic flying training in October 1941 and began advanced flight training at pre-fighter school 2 in Lachen-Speyerdorf on 1 November 1941. There, Hartmann learned combat techniques and gunnery skills. His advanced pilot training was completed on 31 January 1942, and, between 1 March 1942 and 20 August 1942, he learned to fly the Messerschmitt Bf 109 at the Jagdfliegerschule 2 in Zerbst/Anhalt.
Hartmann's time as a trainee pilot did not always go smoothly. On 31 March 1942, during a gunnery training flight, he ignored regulations and performed some aerobatics in his Bf 109 over the Zerbst airfield. His punishment was a three-month period of confinement to quarters with the loss of ⅔ of his pay in fines. Hartmann later recalled that the incident saved his life:
That week confined to my room actually saved my life. I had been scheduled to go up on a gunnery flight the afternoon that I was confined. My roommate took the flight instead of me, in an aircraft I had been scheduled to fly. Shortly after he took off, while on his way to the gunnery range, he developed engine trouble and had to crash-land near the Hindenburg-Kattowitz railroad. He was killed in the crash.
Afterwards, Hartmann practiced hard. During a gunnery practice session in June 1942, he hit a target drogue with 24 of the allotted 50 rounds of machine-gun fire, a feat that was considered difficult to achieve. His training had qualified him to fly 17 different types of powered aircraft, and, following his graduation, he was posted on 21 August 1942 to Ergänzungs-Jagdgruppe Ost (Fighter Supply Group, East) in Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia, where he remained until 10 October 1942.
parsifal
Colonel
Further narrative from the same source
In October 1942, Hartmann was assigned to fighter wing Jagdgeschwader 52 (JG 52), based at Maykop on the Eastern Front in the Soviet Union. The wing was equipped with the Messerschmitt Bf 109G, but Hartmann and several other pilots were initially given the task of ferrying Junkers Ju 87 Stukas down to Mariupol. His first flight ended with brake failure, causing the Stuka to crash into and destroy the controller's hut. Hartmann was assigned to III./JG 52, led by Gruppenkommandeur Major Hubertus von Bonin, and placed under the experienced Oberfeldwebel Edmund "Paule" Roßmann, although he also flew with such experienced pilots as Alfred Grislawski, Hans Dammers and Josef Zwernemann. After a few days of intensive mock combats and practice flights, Grislawski conceded that, although Hartmann had much to learn regarding combat tactics, he was quite a talented pilot. Paule Roßmann taught Hartmann the fundamentals of the surprise attack, a tactic that led to his "See – Decide – Attack – Break" style of aerial combat.
Hartmann flew his first combat mission on 14 October 1942 as Roßmann's wingman. When they encountered 10 enemy aircraft below, Hartmann, obsessed by the idea of scoring his first kill, opened full throttle and became separated from Roßmann. He engaged an enemy fighter, but failed to score any hits and nearly collided with it instead. He then ran for cover in low cloud, and his mission subsequently ended with a crash landing after his aircraft ran out of fuel. Hartmann had violated almost every rule of air-to-air combat, and von Bonin sentenced him to three days of working with the ground crew. Twenty-two days later, Hartmann claimed his first kill, an Ilyushin Il-2 of the 7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment, but, by the end of 1942, he had added only one more kill to his tally. As with many top aces, it took him some time to establish himself as a consistently scoring fighter pilot.
Hartmann's youthful appearance earned him the nickname "Bubi" (the hypocoristic form of "young boy" in the German language), and the ace Walter Krupinski, to whom Hartmann was assigned as wingman, would constantly urge him: "Hey, Bubi, get in closer". On 25 May 1943, he shot down a LaGG-5 before colliding with another Soviet fighter but was able to maintain control of his damaged aircraft. On 7 July, in the large dogfights that occurred during the Battle of Kursk, he shot down seven enemy aircraft. At the start of August 1943, his tally stood at 50, and, by the end of the month, he had added another 48 kills. In the following month, he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 9./JG 52.
In his first year of operational service, Hartmann felt a distinct lack of respect towards Russian pilots. He recalled that most Soviet fighters did not have proper gunsights, and their pilots resorted to drawing them on the windshield by hand.
In the early days, incredible as it may seem, there was no reason for you to feel fear if the Russian fighter was behind you. With their hand-painted "gunsights" they couldn't pull the lead properly or hit you.
While Hartmann considered the P-39, P-40, and Hurricane inferior to the Fw 190 and Bf 109, they did provide the Soviets with valuable gunsight technology.
The Germans learned a few tricks from their enemy. Oil freezing in the DB 605 engines of their Bf 109G-6s made them difficult to start in the extreme cold of the Russian winter. A captured Soviet airman demonstrated how pouring fuel into the aircraft's oil sump would thaw the oil and allow the engine to start after only one attempt. Another solution to this problem, also learned from the Soviets, was to ignite fuel under the engine.
In October 1942, Hartmann was assigned to fighter wing Jagdgeschwader 52 (JG 52), based at Maykop on the Eastern Front in the Soviet Union. The wing was equipped with the Messerschmitt Bf 109G, but Hartmann and several other pilots were initially given the task of ferrying Junkers Ju 87 Stukas down to Mariupol. His first flight ended with brake failure, causing the Stuka to crash into and destroy the controller's hut. Hartmann was assigned to III./JG 52, led by Gruppenkommandeur Major Hubertus von Bonin, and placed under the experienced Oberfeldwebel Edmund "Paule" Roßmann, although he also flew with such experienced pilots as Alfred Grislawski, Hans Dammers and Josef Zwernemann. After a few days of intensive mock combats and practice flights, Grislawski conceded that, although Hartmann had much to learn regarding combat tactics, he was quite a talented pilot. Paule Roßmann taught Hartmann the fundamentals of the surprise attack, a tactic that led to his "See – Decide – Attack – Break" style of aerial combat.
Hartmann flew his first combat mission on 14 October 1942 as Roßmann's wingman. When they encountered 10 enemy aircraft below, Hartmann, obsessed by the idea of scoring his first kill, opened full throttle and became separated from Roßmann. He engaged an enemy fighter, but failed to score any hits and nearly collided with it instead. He then ran for cover in low cloud, and his mission subsequently ended with a crash landing after his aircraft ran out of fuel. Hartmann had violated almost every rule of air-to-air combat, and von Bonin sentenced him to three days of working with the ground crew. Twenty-two days later, Hartmann claimed his first kill, an Ilyushin Il-2 of the 7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment, but, by the end of 1942, he had added only one more kill to his tally. As with many top aces, it took him some time to establish himself as a consistently scoring fighter pilot.
Hartmann's youthful appearance earned him the nickname "Bubi" (the hypocoristic form of "young boy" in the German language), and the ace Walter Krupinski, to whom Hartmann was assigned as wingman, would constantly urge him: "Hey, Bubi, get in closer". On 25 May 1943, he shot down a LaGG-5 before colliding with another Soviet fighter but was able to maintain control of his damaged aircraft. On 7 July, in the large dogfights that occurred during the Battle of Kursk, he shot down seven enemy aircraft. At the start of August 1943, his tally stood at 50, and, by the end of the month, he had added another 48 kills. In the following month, he was appointed Staffelkapitän of 9./JG 52.
In his first year of operational service, Hartmann felt a distinct lack of respect towards Russian pilots. He recalled that most Soviet fighters did not have proper gunsights, and their pilots resorted to drawing them on the windshield by hand.
In the early days, incredible as it may seem, there was no reason for you to feel fear if the Russian fighter was behind you. With their hand-painted "gunsights" they couldn't pull the lead properly or hit you.
While Hartmann considered the P-39, P-40, and Hurricane inferior to the Fw 190 and Bf 109, they did provide the Soviets with valuable gunsight technology.
The Germans learned a few tricks from their enemy. Oil freezing in the DB 605 engines of their Bf 109G-6s made them difficult to start in the extreme cold of the Russian winter. A captured Soviet airman demonstrated how pouring fuel into the aircraft's oil sump would thaw the oil and allow the engine to start after only one attempt. Another solution to this problem, also learned from the Soviets, was to ignite fuel under the engine.
I am sorry, you are very much mistaken.. there's nothing 'british' in that.. I studied medieval history.. this is what you describe - true for the dark medieval ages, very early, say up to 12 centuria.. also for England. But then, not true, neither for Europe.. accusation was replaced by inquisition type process, and needed proof of guilt. So you assume wrongly that some way Britain was sharing modern democratic rights to its people, other places not... sorry this is complete wrong in both factual and view.. medieval was very different place than modern, you cant judge modern eye.. Say some Slavic area (speaking of Russia chiefly) is different - there was, for example, collective guilt of village for wrongdoers - there development is very special, more influenced by byzantium and mongol...No British until 18 century anyway... in any case - student of British history also knows this transference of "democratic" instutues to US from England.. on bit weak legs.. really it was Dutch "invention", transferred to England with House Orange before Hannoverian princes from Germany took throne.. Dutch was already republic (a true republic, not consititonal monarchy like England - also England was not alone in this respect, same trends in Medieval France, Germany, Kingdom of Poland, Kingdom of Hungary)
Anglo-Saxon is not Germanic...? And what is "Hispanic"? Gallic? Gallic was romanized, there is no seperate gallic culture, unless you mean french.. Anyway - these are generic concepts - mostly "canonized" and spread by Romans thousend year ago before first saxon invader set foot on English isles... search term: "Bonus pater familias"...
Not really make argue, but in my opinion, French were masters of making natives their best buddies.. through century, French gained colonies much more by good diplomacy, rather than direct "projection of force". They did very cunningly how to make Iroquis and other tribes in North America their allies and turn them against the rival English. They were, but also less inclined to settle down overseas, say unlike British or Spanish.
parsifal
Colonel
Tante
We've been asked to get this thread back on topic. I would be happy to discuss your point of view either by PM or ina separate thread for that purpose, but this is not the place to do that. It has no real relevance to the thread subject
We've been asked to get this thread back on topic. I would be happy to discuss your point of view either by PM or ina separate thread for that purpose, but this is not the place to do that. It has no real relevance to the thread subject
Part of the Erich Hartmann interview:
Q: How was the meeting with Hitler and receiving the Diamonds different from
the previous two encounters?
A: Well Dieter Hrabak and the rest threw a party before I left, and I was so drunk
I could not stand the next day. It sounds like we were all alcoholics, but this
was not the case. We lived and played hard. You never knew what the next
day would bring. I few my 109 to Insterburg, and JG-52 gave me an escort.
When I arrived at the Wolfschanze the world had changed. Hitler had already
begun the trials and executions of those involved and everyone was under
suspicion. You had to enter three areas of security, and no one was allowed to
carry a weapon into the last section. I told Hitler's SS guard to tell the Fuehrer
that I would not receive the Diamonds if I were not trusted to carry my
Walther pistol. The guy looked like I had just married his mother. He went to
speak with von Below, who was a Colonel then, and Below came out said it
was all right. I hung my cap and pistol belt on the stand and Hitler came to me,
and said, "I wish we had more like you and Ruedel," and he gave me the
Diamonds, which were encrusted upon another set of Oak Leaves and Swords.
We had coffee and lunch, and he confided in me, saying 'militarily the war is
lost,' and that I must already know this, and that if we waited the Western
Allies and Soviets would be at war with each other. He also spoke about the
partisan problem and he asked me of my experience. Hitler asked me my
opinion of the tactics used in fighting the American and British bombers.
Since I did not have a lot of experience with this, I simply stated what I
thought was a fact. Goering's orders to combat them and the method
employed was in error. I also informed him of the deficiencies in pilot
training; too many minimally trained men were simply throwing their lives
away. He also spoke about the new weapons and tactics, and then we parted.
That was the last time I saw him, 25 August 1944. I flew back to the unit,
where an order for ten days leave waited. I also had to report to Galland,
where we discussed the Me-262 situation. I went back to marry my Ushi, that
was all that mattered to me.
Q: How was the meeting with Hitler and receiving the Diamonds different from
the previous two encounters?
A: Well Dieter Hrabak and the rest threw a party before I left, and I was so drunk
I could not stand the next day. It sounds like we were all alcoholics, but this
was not the case. We lived and played hard. You never knew what the next
day would bring. I few my 109 to Insterburg, and JG-52 gave me an escort.
When I arrived at the Wolfschanze the world had changed. Hitler had already
begun the trials and executions of those involved and everyone was under
suspicion. You had to enter three areas of security, and no one was allowed to
carry a weapon into the last section. I told Hitler's SS guard to tell the Fuehrer
that I would not receive the Diamonds if I were not trusted to carry my
Walther pistol. The guy looked like I had just married his mother. He went to
speak with von Below, who was a Colonel then, and Below came out said it
was all right. I hung my cap and pistol belt on the stand and Hitler came to me,
and said, "I wish we had more like you and Ruedel," and he gave me the
Diamonds, which were encrusted upon another set of Oak Leaves and Swords.
We had coffee and lunch, and he confided in me, saying 'militarily the war is
lost,' and that I must already know this, and that if we waited the Western
Allies and Soviets would be at war with each other. He also spoke about the
partisan problem and he asked me of my experience. Hitler asked me my
opinion of the tactics used in fighting the American and British bombers.
Since I did not have a lot of experience with this, I simply stated what I
thought was a fact. Goering's orders to combat them and the method
employed was in error. I also informed him of the deficiencies in pilot
training; too many minimally trained men were simply throwing their lives
away. He also spoke about the new weapons and tactics, and then we parted.
That was the last time I saw him, 25 August 1944. I flew back to the unit,
where an order for ten days leave waited. I also had to report to Galland,
where we discussed the Me-262 situation. I went back to marry my Ushi, that
was all that mattered to me.
and some more:
Q: During the war what were your worst fears?
A: Well, I feared capture in Russia, that was a very eye-opening prospect. The
bombing of our cities also worried us, as our families were very dear to us. I
suppose I was most worried that Ushi would not wait, so I always tried to see
her whenever I was on leave. Medals meant leave, and that was an incentive. I
had the choice of losing her or returning all the decorations, I would send the
medals back. She was too important to me, and always has been. It was later
learned that the Soviets knew exactly who I was and Stalin placed a 10,000
ruble price on my head. This was later increased, and Ruedel and I had the
highest bounties of any Germans during the war, probably with exception to
Hitler and a few of the Nazi elite. Every time I went up I knew that someone
would be looking for me. I had thoughts of the American western films, where
the top gunfighter is called out into the street; another person wanting to make
his mark. I felt marked, so I had to change my aircraft occasionally. I found
that when I used the black tulip I had more difficulty in finding opponents,
who avoided me for the most part. I needed camouflage.
Q: During the war what were your worst fears?
A: Well, I feared capture in Russia, that was a very eye-opening prospect. The
bombing of our cities also worried us, as our families were very dear to us. I
suppose I was most worried that Ushi would not wait, so I always tried to see
her whenever I was on leave. Medals meant leave, and that was an incentive. I
had the choice of losing her or returning all the decorations, I would send the
medals back. She was too important to me, and always has been. It was later
learned that the Soviets knew exactly who I was and Stalin placed a 10,000
ruble price on my head. This was later increased, and Ruedel and I had the
highest bounties of any Germans during the war, probably with exception to
Hitler and a few of the Nazi elite. Every time I went up I knew that someone
would be looking for me. I had thoughts of the American western films, where
the top gunfighter is called out into the street; another person wanting to make
his mark. I felt marked, so I had to change my aircraft occasionally. I found
that when I used the black tulip I had more difficulty in finding opponents,
who avoided me for the most part. I needed camouflage.
I agree. Too much off topic this thread.. perhaps start new thread in correct place, so others can discuss too? Can you do it?
the first casualty of war is truth.. and so it seems to be the case with certain Luftwaffe pilots. personally I'll take their words over Allied list.. perhaps the wrong plane was listed as being shot down. Hence some ' inaccurate' claims. How many times did the VVS for example listed Hartmann as a claim? a dozen or so?
Erich Hartmann first became known in the United States because of the publication of Toliver and Constable's first book, "Fighter Aces of the USA" in 1965, I believe. There was a chapter called "The Enemy Aces" in which the authors listed the most prominent Luftwaffe aces and explained the LW confirmation procedures. The high scores of the German WWII aces had previously been discounted as propaganda, when mentioned at all.
Air Classics magazine had an interview with Erich Hartmann in 1968 titled, "The Reluctant Eagle." It took a year of negotiations with the West German government. Hartmann was still in the Bundesluftwaffe at the time. The article with the interview was reprinted in a 1981 Air Classics anthology. I still have it. Of Erich Hartmann Air Classics wrote:
"The years have mellowed Hartmannn. On the surface, he appears easy-going and relaxed, but underneath he is a tired, disenchanted man. Although he has more than earned it, he does not play the role of hero. He has nothing more to prove. For Hartmann has seen and done it all, and he has a very accurate memory."
The article then goes into the reason for the high scores by LW fighter pilots and details Hartmann's career with quotes from Hartmann. It's fairly long.
The biggest innacuracy is that the article repeats the myth that Hartmann shot down Ralph Hofer.
Hartmann gave an opinion on the combat then taking place in Vietnam: "He feels that aircraft such as the F-104, which he flies, and most other current American fighters are too sophisticated for Viet Nam. He calls them 'technical masterpieces, which are wasted against simple, easier to maintain, cheaper Russian types that do the job called for even better."
"But in the final analysis, Erich Hartmann has had his fill of war. Now 46 years old, he speaks from an experience few others can claim. Hartmann's formula for peace is simple: "Politicians who urge war should be sent to the front and made to do just what they order their soldiers to do."
Overall, Air Classics magazine was impressed by meeting and talking to Erich Hartmann.
Air Classics magazine had an interview with Erich Hartmann in 1968 titled, "The Reluctant Eagle." It took a year of negotiations with the West German government. Hartmann was still in the Bundesluftwaffe at the time. The article with the interview was reprinted in a 1981 Air Classics anthology. I still have it. Of Erich Hartmann Air Classics wrote:
"The years have mellowed Hartmannn. On the surface, he appears easy-going and relaxed, but underneath he is a tired, disenchanted man. Although he has more than earned it, he does not play the role of hero. He has nothing more to prove. For Hartmann has seen and done it all, and he has a very accurate memory."
The article then goes into the reason for the high scores by LW fighter pilots and details Hartmann's career with quotes from Hartmann. It's fairly long.
The biggest innacuracy is that the article repeats the myth that Hartmann shot down Ralph Hofer.
Hartmann gave an opinion on the combat then taking place in Vietnam: "He feels that aircraft such as the F-104, which he flies, and most other current American fighters are too sophisticated for Viet Nam. He calls them 'technical masterpieces, which are wasted against simple, easier to maintain, cheaper Russian types that do the job called for even better."
"But in the final analysis, Erich Hartmann has had his fill of war. Now 46 years old, he speaks from an experience few others can claim. Hartmann's formula for peace is simple: "Politicians who urge war should be sent to the front and made to do just what they order their soldiers to do."
Overall, Air Classics magazine was impressed by meeting and talking to Erich Hartmann.
parsifal
Colonel
Welcome aboard David. Interesting article
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
drgondog
Major
John - Last comment off topic - I have enormous respect for Britain and the Empire, that we should exist for half as long in a benevolent way would be a miracle
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Last off topic remark from me too. I also have a great deal of respect and affection for America and the Commonwealth countries.
We are, in many ways, like a big family..squabbling, arguments, huffing but, if anyone else attacks us then we are one.
Regards
John
Last edited:
Thanks. I've found a lot of information on this forum.
Erich
the old Sage
E. Hartmann was known well before the Toliver book which needs to be re-written. Erich and other top dogs were flying out of Luke A/F which then became a buzz somewhat from Arizona and Cali historians as the place to be to catch the former LW pilots before and after cockpit time
Been going through my notes on anything Erich Hartmann ever said. It seems he shot down at least five P-51 Mustangs. two just outside of Prague where he witnessed Americans russians dogfighting with eachother ( two Jaks lost, 1 P-51 Damaged), then three more P-51s during the Ploesti raids.
Erich
the old Sage
not sure if anyone has seriously cross checked to see what P-51 groups he engaged with JG 52 or if they were indeed even shot down. His meaning E. Hartmann's score has been really degraded downward the last 5 or so years.
By who? And how without his logbook?
Erich
the old Sage
this has been noted with some accuracy by Soviet historians and German historians as it is very unwise to believe or wish to believe the ace had 300 plus victories the same could be said of the bogus score of Rüdels over all talley of Soviet tank kills, there is not one LW tank ace even close.
also one must consider the very limited use of gun cameras on the 109's of JG 51, 52 on the Ost front, we of course in the past could only go by the glorification of the aces such high scores. As I said earlier the Horrido book needs a revamp completely. Marseilles score needs to be serious re-done as huge daily scores of his do not match Allied losses records. Generalizing am I don't think so.
also one must consider the very limited use of gun cameras on the 109's of JG 51, 52 on the Ost front, we of course in the past could only go by the glorification of the aces such high scores. As I said earlier the Horrido book needs a revamp completely. Marseilles score needs to be serious re-done as huge daily scores of his do not match Allied losses records. Generalizing am I don't think so.
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