Everything WE know is wrong.

[swampyankee]

.... insane,

but, not insane ...

".... What's a worse perversion of history?" .. you ask.

My Answer: The perversion of allowing the infinity larger legacy of Bolshevik monstrosities to be 'accepted' , 'forgiven', 'understood' by our society: schools, media, churches, governments.

PBS runs a Five Part Documentary around the rise of Nazism - a political, tribal, racial perversion that survived for 15 years.
PBS does NOT run documentaries called "The Bolsheviks: Terrorists to Totalitarians - the Bloody Road Still Unfolds.

If I had lived in Berlin and saw ANTIFA running amok in 30's - 1933 .... I would want them STOPPED. Period.

The trouble with that is that the nazis were doing most of the running amok. This isn't saying that the German left was entirely innocent; they were perfectly willing to break heads.
The right in Germany had been intent on destroying the German republic from the time the German Army lost WW1; they succeeded with the nazis. The major difference between the rise of the nazis and the bolsheviks is that the nazis subverted a creaky, but vaguely functional, democracy, while bolshevism was either imposed by external force (all of eastern Europe) or violent revolution.

 

[GrauGeist]

From a 1930's historical context and not engaging in the political aspect, there were 8 left-wing parties, 19 right-wing parties with 8 central parties. Add to that, the 14 non-affiliated parties plus the 20 unions and organizations and it becomes clear that the system in Germany was a hot mess and a confusing "mine field" for the average German citizen.

 

[Snautzer01]

From a 1930's historical context and not engaging in the political aspect, there were 8 left-wing parties, 19 right-wing parties with 8 central parties. Add to that, the 14 non-affiliated parties plus the 20 unions and organizations and it becomes clear that the system in Germany was a hot mess and a confusing "mine field" for the average German citizen.

And Germany was not the only country being torn apart from the inside out.

 

[pbehn]

The one myth mentioned about the P51 pilots shooting down a lot of enemy aircraft because it arrived late in the war when the German pilots were not well trained- isn't that one true?

I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.

 

[GrauGeist]

And Germany was not the only country being torn apart from the inside out.

Agreed.
Greece, Spain, Italy and the Central Balkans just to name a few.

 

[yosimitesam]

Shall we address the Owen J. Baggett episode where he was hailed as the only person to shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45 pistol? Supposedly the Jap pilot flew close to him, while he was descending in his parachute from his mortally damaged B24, and the Jap pilot slowed down, opened his canopy, and flew slowly near Baggett, wherein he took out his .45 and fired 4 shots. Several other airmen in parachutes claimed he hit the pilot because they saw the Zero plummet toward earth. However, Wiki states that Japanese records clearly show they had no casualties in this particular encounter. Personally I doubt it happened and I bring up the subject only because Lt. Baggett and I happen share the same last name, although we are unrelated, AFIK.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's possible the pilot regained control after being shot.
A .45 caliber round is no joke and since the other IJA pilots were shooting crewmen in the silk, you can be sure I'd be doing the same thing.
In regards to pistols versus pilots - this is how armed conflicts between enemy pilots started during WWI.

 

[P-39 Expert]

I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.

All true, but you must admit that German pilot quality had declined by December 1943 when the Merlin Mustangs got to England. And the 8th AF could have used those Mustangs in August and October on the disastrous Schweinfurt raids.

 

[pbehn]

All true, but you must admit that German pilot quality had declined by December 1943 when the Merlin Mustangs got to England. And the 8th AF could have used those Mustangs in August and October on the disastrous Schweinfurt raids.

A topic others know much better than I. P-51B and Cs started to arrive in August 1943, but one of their first jobs was as advanced trainers for partially trained pilots arriving from USA. To have them available in squadron service in large numbers needs a whole shift in the time line, not only for the P-51 but also for everyone involved. Many were still wedded to the doctrine of the bomber getting through. Many airfields were under construction. You also need the longer range P-47s and P-38s with pilots. The Schweinfurt raids exposed more than just a need for escorts, the whole planning and execution of a raid needed to be looked at as regards weather recon and timing which was much more difficult than people imagined and ploughing on regardless when things start to go FUBAR isn't heroic, it kills lots of people for little result.

 

[yosimitesam]

It's possible the pilot regained control after being shot.
A .45 caliber round is no joke and since the other IJA pilots were shooting crewmen in the silk, you can be sure I'd be doing the same thing.
In regards to pistols versus pilots - this is how armed conflicts between enemy pilots started during WWI.

It's certainly theoretically possible. The Japanese records indicate it wasn't a 'kill', of course. The most likely sequence of events, in my rational mind, is something like this: (1) Jap approaches slow with cockpit open to determine if he is alive or dead. (2) Lt. Baggett "plays dead" (he admits this in his statements) (3) The Jap pilot decides he is dead and quits looking directly at him. (4) At this moment, Lt. Baggett pulls his .45 and fires but the projectiles go "over" (probably). (5) The jap pilot is unaware that anything has happened due to the engine and wind noise, and has already decided on his next move, which is a dive, perhaps because he thought he saw other enemy aircraft or other parachutists (6) He dives away, completely unaware he was just involved in the creation of a legend.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

The one myth mentioned about the P51 pilots shooting down a lot of enemy aircraft because it arrived late in the war when the German pilots were not well trained- isn't that one true?

Depends if you are suggesting that in the western theatre it was easier to score kills in mid 1944 than it was in 1940 as a "general point", or if are suggesting that the P-51 specifically wasn't very good.

( #1=Correct-ish* | #2=VERY wrong)

*Depending on the exact date and which aircraft models had just been introduced

 

[GrauGeist]

It's certainly theoretically possible. The Japanese records indicate it wasn't a 'kill', of course. The most likely sequence of events, in my rational mind, is something like this: (1) Jap approaches slow with cockpit open to determine if he is alive or dead. (2) Lt. Baggett "plays dead" (he admits this in his statements) (3) The Jap pilot decides he is dead and quits looking directly at him. (4) At this moment, Lt. Baggett pulls his .45 and fires but the projectiles go "over" (probably). (5) The jap pilot is unaware that anything has happened due to the engine and wind noise, and has already decided on his next move, which is a dive, perhaps because he thought he saw other enemy aircraft or other parachutists (6) He dives away, completely unaware he was just involved in the creation of a legend.

It's not hard to hit a large object with a pistol and pilots have been known to recover from serious impacts and return to base - Saburo Sakai is a good (and well documented) example of recovering from being struck in the head by a bullet.
In this case, it was a .30 caliber bullet from a Browning .30 MG in the rear of a SBD, but you get the idea.

 

[WATU]

Having watched "Dunkirk", when a Spitfire hits the red on the fuel gauge it still has an hour left in "movie" combat, but didn't really need the engine running anyway.

Just superb design. Engine can be jettisoned to optimise gliding ability.

 

[SaparotRob]

Just superb design. Engine can be jettisoned to optimise gliding ability.

I never knew that!

 

[kalani]

Inspired by posts on the December 7, 1941 thread.
This is for the dumb or flat out wrong things we have heard about aviation or history in general.

Much of what is conventionally held "history" on the attack on Pearl Harbor is flat out propaganda, which is
thereby written into all the books by "parroting" authors.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Much of what is conventionally held "history" on the attack on Pearl Harbor is flat out propaganda, which is
thereby written into all the books by "parroting" authors.

I'm all ears.

 

[kalani]

I'm all ears.

Airacorbra guy, please allow me to frame a response that is thought out, I'll get back to you.thanks

 

[oldcolt357]

I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.

You're correct about Mustangs arriving earlier in the war than 1943 if you are including Allison powered A36's. But I remember reading somewhere that during "Big Week" the last week in February 1944 the 8th AF would send out around 800 escort fighters with something like 600 P47s, 100 P38s and 100 P51's. So wouldn't it would seem that well into 1944 it was still largely a Thunderbolt show? And the Mustang only dominating in numbers for the last year in Europe when Luftwaffe pilots were largely kids being sent out with minimal time in their respective ME 109 or FW 190?

 

[P-39 Expert]

Airacorbra guy, please allow me to frame a response that is thought out, I'll get back to you.thanks

As you may be aware, I love refuting "parroted" information.

 

[kalani]

As you may be aware, I love refuting "parroted" information.

I'm very new here but have been around, and into aviation since the time I was four or five. I have researched the attack since my
first visit to the platform above the USS Arizona, not the spanning memorial in 1962. My first point would be an easy one, the statement of the "Japanese came through Kole Kole Pass, many book carry this as eyewitness account, and even though I grew up around several survivors who swear it to be, it is simply not true.
That's just one of so very many . (just for full disclosure; I live on Oahu and much of my research time has been accompanied by searching the jungles for remains
of the attack and such)