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- #81
Admiral Beez
Major
Ok. I'm checking out of this silliness now.
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Excluding Spitfires and Hurricanes, best fighter for Malaya 1940-41?
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- #82
Admiral Beez
Major
The light empty weight of the Buffalo doesn't look right. Is that without armour, self sealing tanks or ammunition? The Vanguard's nearly 1,000 lbs. more of empty weight must something that the Buffalo is missing.
Obviously you wouldn't attack with Kate's only, but, Bismarck by herself, Japanese carrier launches full strike, of say 18 Zeros, 18 Kate's and 18 Val's. Zeros go in and strafe, Val's go next to suppress AA, then 9 Kate's off each bow in a hammer and anvil attack pushing to minimum range, no fighters, no escort vessels. I think they would have put her down in one raid. If not, a second strike would certainly finish her.
I wouldn't be so quick to write off the RN. Remember who inspired the Japanese to conceive the Pearl harbour attack. Why would the RN have to leave out its Martlets (wildcats)? By 1942 the RN and the FAA were the epitome of sea borne air defence. Their radar guided intercepts were very effective in the Mediterranean against numerous and highly efficient German and Italian land based air forces. The combined defence of Martlets/Sea Hurricanes and Fulmars were superb in operation Pedestal. Just as ADM Sommerville tried, The RN would attempt a night torpedo attack with their ASR equipped Albacores and Swordfish. If its four RN armoured carriers vs four fragile Japanese carriers I will call it a toss up.
Kevin J
Banned
Okay, so this is how my hypothetical Far East Fleet works made up of old WW1 battleships works.
First when the Japanese land on the East coast of Malaya, we send Tiger, up-armoured like Kongo, hybrid battleship Erin and Agincourt up to bombard the beaches. The Hurricats off Erin rise up and make mincemeat out of all those naughty undefended Japanese bombers even putting them off making successful torpedo runs. Okay, so some have to ditch in the sea, but a few make it back to land. The Japanese beachhead is successfully destroyed. Obviously no British ships are sunk.
Over on the West coast, our hybrid Iron Duke class battleships make continuous re supply runs up and down the Straits of Malacca, delivering spare Hurricats to ground based FAA units defending the Straits Settlements, Penang, Malacca, Singapore, even as far East as Labuan island, giving fire support to our brave forces defending them. A detachment of marines stands by at each settlement .ready to hang from the yardarm any army personnel even remotely considering surrender. Malaya may have been overrun, but the Straits Settlements are secured. All our brave British troops then have to do is march forwards clearing the Malayan jungles of any remaining Japanese holdouts.
Finally, units from Europe, centred around Warspite, 2 armoured carriers and 4 R-class battleships arrive at Singapore, then sail north through the South China Seas and relieve Hong Kong.
Naturally, the Americans holding out at Bataan are saved by the British en-route.
We may of course lose a ship or two during these operations.
Actually it would be 4 armored carriers vs 6 Japanese carrier's. Air complement illustrious 36, Formidable 40, Victorious 36, Indomitable 45, total 157. The 6 Japanese carrier's at Pearl Harbor carried 414 total aircraft. They launched 89 Kate's on the 1st wave and 54 Kate's on the 2nd wave. That's 143 torpedo bombers alone vs 157 total aircraft on all 4 armored carriers. They launched 51 Val's on the 1st wave and 78 Val's on the 2nd wave, a total of 129 Val's vs 157 total aircraft on the British ships. They had 43 Zeros on the 1st wave and 36 Zeros on the 2nd wave, 48 remained with the fleet for CAP.
What do the British use for strike aircraft? Swordfish? Fulmars? If I were the Japanese I would just remain out of range of retaliation when I launched my first strike. I would point out that while the armored carriers were tough, I doubt they were tougher than the Prince of Wales.
How many strikes during pedestal were escorted? Zeros have a way of disrupting intercepting fighters. I think if the Japanese had been covering the Mediterranean instead of the Germans they would have stopped the Royal Navy. I think they would have also sunk the USS Hornet when she brought in the 2 loads of Spitfires.
buffnut453
Captain
To "stay out of range".you actually have to know where the enemy is located. Experience at Midway indicates reliance on airborne scouting wasn't terribly effective for the Japanese. A British force could get in close, guided by radar at night and hit the Japanese carriers before they knew what was happening. Also don't disregard the British submarine threat. This is multi-domain naval warfare not "I have more carriers and aircraft than you".
Hi,
Here are the weight breakdown's for the various Buffalo Marks provided in the book.
Pat
PS. Looking through my information a little closer, I do see an initial rate of climb for the B339E of 2600ft/min and a time to 15,000 ft of 6.3 min.
I understand what your saying and yes there is also the fog of war etc. and under perfect conditions an escort carrier with a load of Swordfish could sneak up on and sink an Essex class carrier or even a Midway. But, with 157 mostly second rate or obsolete British naval aircraft such as Swordfish, Fulmars and maybe Sea Hurricanes, vs 414 Zeros, Val's and Kate's flown by some of If not the best pilots in the world at that time, who do you really think is going to win? I mean yes, I might fight mike Tyson and win by sneaking up behind him and hitting him in the head with a 9 pound sledgehammer, but the other 999 times out of 1000 I don't have a chance. I would imagine that if they had gone to war the Japanese might have looked for and found the entire British navy. I mean come on, they couldn't even sneak in 1 battleship, 1 battlecruiser and 2 destroyers. Again, if I had to bet the farm on that battle I would go with the Japanese.
I also maintain that a single Japanese carrier could and would have disposed of the vaunted Bismarck with probably a single strike and to them it would have been little more than a training exercise. Launch the whole airgroup, Zeros go in strafing, Val's pummel upper decks to silence AA. 9 Kate's come in off each bow and close to point blank range before releasing. I don't think any single battleship in the world in 1941 could have done any better.
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Shortround6
Major General
You are assuming the Japanese could have found the Bismark in the first place 
Big difference in attacking in daylight in the Pacific (most of the time) vs dusk/night in the North Atlantic.
How much did radar on the Swordfish help them locate the the Bismark to make the attack runs?
Let's also note that the AA suite on the Prince of Wales was pretty much 2nd rate while the Repulse was 3rd rate (at best).
I am not saying the Bismark was first rate but it had some definite advantages (and a few disadvantages) in it's AA suite.
Big difference in attacking in daylight in the Pacific (most of the time) vs dusk/night in the North Atlantic.
How much did radar on the Swordfish help them locate the the Bismark to make the attack runs?
Let's also note that the AA suite on the Prince of Wales was pretty much 2nd rate while the Repulse was 3rd rate (at best).
I am not saying the Bismark was first rate but it had some definite advantages (and a few disadvantages) in it's AA suite.
Kevin J
Banned
You are assuming the Japanese could have found the Bismark in the first place
Big difference in attacking in daylight in the Pacific (most of the time) vs dusk/night in the North Atlantic.
How much did radar on the Swordfish help them locate the the Bismark to make the attack runs?
Let's also note that the AA suite on the Prince of Wales was pretty much 2nd rate while the Repulse was 3rd rate (at best).
I am not saying the Bismark was first rate but it had some definite advantages (and a few disadvantages) in it's AA suite.
I'd put the King George V class AA as first rate, Repulse inadequate, could be either 2nd or 3rd, but both these Battleships were simply overwhelmed by sheer numbers with no fighter cover.
As for sending the Bismarck into the Atlantic, sheer Teutonic arrogance.
But back on topic, I don't think it's going to make any difference what fighter you send to Malaya until you first have a functioning observer corps and that means recruiting a lot more of the locals to do it. IIRC, there was only a single Malay Regiment recruited out of a 5 million plus population.
As for giving air cover to the RN, if would have to be the all weather day or night Beaufighter.
Shortround6
Major General
The KGV class and several other British ships with 5.25in DP guns suffered from a poor rate of fire for an AA gun. The 4.5 in mounts may have had 50% or more faster firing rates.
The shells weighed 80lbs and while they were just dandy for shooting at other ships they were too heavy for the crew to handle during long anti-air engagements, especially in less than calm seas. Post war accounts differing from official publications.
The shells weighed 80lbs and while they were just dandy for shooting at other ships they were too heavy for the crew to handle during long anti-air engagements, especially in less than calm seas. Post war accounts differing from official publications.
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- #93
Admiral Beez
Major
The RN had a carrier in the Indian Ocean, HMS Hermes. In preparation for deployment to Singapore Hermes should have been updated with a crash barrier and raised to flush aft flight deck. Without an extensive and expensive remake of the lifts non-folding Martlets, Seafires and Hurricanes won't fit, and folding Fulmars are too long. Leave the Swordfish, load up with Buffaloes, they'll fit, as I show below where I've scaled the aircraft to the hangar, I've omitted the forward lift but the dims are accurate. Force Z should have sailed with Hermes, maybe they all die, we'll see.
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I'd say a load of Buffaloes would probably have been enough to protect Force Z against unescorted Japanese twin engine bombers
I was assuming that Bismarck had been found and a daylight attack. Mainly just making the point that the actual ability to sink Bismarck would have not been an issue for a single Japanese fleet carrier in 1941. As for Bismarck AA, if Zeroes or A5M's strafe first, then Val's get a few hits, AA will be seriously reduced for the Kate's and 9 Kate's off each bow should be more than sufficient to end Bismarck's careerYou are assuming the Japanese could have found the Bismark in the first place
Big difference in attacking in daylight in the Pacific (most of the time) vs dusk/night in the North Atlantic.
How much did radar on the Swordfish help them locate the the Bismark to make the attack runs?
Let's also note that the AA suite on the Prince of Wales was pretty much 2nd rate while the Repulse was 3rd rate (at best).
I am not saying the Bismark was first rate but it had some definite advantages (and a few disadvantages) in it's AA suite.
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- #96
Admiral Beez
Major
Get PoW's radar fully operational and coordinating with Hermes' CAG and I'd say Force Z survives, mainly because with air power Phillips doesn't have to send his force up the Gulf of Thailand to search for IJA landings, thus keeping out of easy range of IJN land based strike aircraft. I'd sail the lot to Ceylon to await Indomitable and further reinforcements, including folding Martlets, if Hermes survives well into 1942.
Of course Force Z had eight Shagbats so sailing up the Gulf without conducting aerial reconnaissance wasn't necessary even without Hermes. The book Bloody Shambles writes that one Walrus was launched, being over PoW and Repulse when they were sunk, before flying to Singapore to report on the sinking. This, and not telling RAF where you are makes Phillips the RN's worst utilizer of readily available air capability since Guy D'Oyly-Hughes
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Sounds like a reasonable plan/assessment of how it might have worked out differently.
The problem with the older battleships as I understand it (from Neptune's Inferno) was fuel consumption. At least for the American navy, the WW I and 1920s era ships used several times more fuel than the more modern ones. As much as a dozen or more non-capital ships.
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- #99
Admiral Beez
Major
For the Revenge class it was water consumption. They could not venture far without the boilers and crew suffering from dehydration.
I'd take that bet. You'd have to give the IJN "Taihō " class carriers to carry the bigger planes. Those have armored flight decks like the RN carriers* and carries 65 aircraft. Maybe substitute something like a N1K1 or Ki-84 (pretend it's suitable for Carrier ops) for the A7 since we really don't know anything real about the latter. Sea Fury is impressive as a fighter - it's a beast, but the Barracuda is a crap bomber, B7A is a deadly ship killer (assuming it's running) and looks like it can hold it's own in a dogfight - wiki says it could outmaneuver A6M5s. It works as both a torpedo and a dive bomber so you don't need any (far less capable) D4Y. The B7A was made to replace the D4Y in fact along with the B6N.
* however maybe armor wasn't so great since the Taiho itself was sunk by a single torpedo from a the USS Albacore. Seems like abyssmal damage control was the real culprit.
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