- Thread starter
-
- #81
Admiral Beez
Major
Ok. I'm checking out of this silliness now.
Last edited:
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Ok. I'm checking out of this silliness now.Think about the Bismarck fight. Epic battle in British history. Any Japanese carrier with 12-18 Kate's would have dispatched Bismarck without breaking a sweat.
The light empty weight of the Buffalo doesn't look right. Is that without armour, self sealing tanks or ammunition? The Vanguard's nearly 1,000 lbs. more of empty weight must something that the Buffalo is missing.Hi,
Just from a quick look at stats from Wikipedia, for the P-66, and "America's 100,000" for the Buffalo:
View attachment 559497
Pat
Obviously you wouldn't attack with Kate's only, but, Bismarck by herself, Japanese carrier launches full strike, of say 18 Zeros, 18 Kate's and 18 Val's. Zeros go in and strafe, Val's go next to suppress AA, then 9 Kate's off each bow in a hammer and anvil attack pushing to minimum range, no fighters, no escort vessels. I think they would have put her down in one raid. If not, a second strike would certainly finish her.Ok. I'm checking out of this silliness now.
Everyone please understand, I don't mean to disrespect the Royal Navy. But let's face it, they were not in the same league as the Japanese in carrier warfare. Neither was the US for a while. List out what aircraft would be on board each Royal Navy carrier and their capabilities. If you leave out the Wildcat, you have Fulmars and Swordfish. If the Japanese are using all 6 carriers from The Pearl Harbor attack plus some of the smaller carriers merely to carry Zeroes as CAP for the fleet, then they could put up even more planes than they did at Pearl. First wave at Pearl Harbor was 89 Kate's, 51 Val's and 43 Zeroes. If Britain doesn't have Wildcats then 43 Zeros will clear the sky of anything resembling a CAP(might do it anyway). Then you have 51 of the finest dive bomber pilots in the world, quickly followed by 89 of the absolute best torpedo pilots, planes and torpedoes until well into 1943. 89 Kate's opposed by nothing but AA will decimate any fleet on the water, British, USA doesn't matter. That is only the first wave. The second wave was 54 Kate's, 78 Val's and 35 Zeros. They held 48 Zeros back for fleet CAP. If they brought their smaller carrier with Zeros only to fly CAP then those 48 Zeros could accompany the first strike to make sure there was no air opposition. From then on it is simply target practice like Prince of Wales and Repulse
1945 isn't 1941. The reason we went off on this tangent was someone said the British should have added a few old battleships and other ships to the Far East fleet. My point is in 1941, no one in the world could have handled the Japanese in a huge Jutland type battle. So the Japanese don't have radar in 1941, what kind of attack can British carriers launch? A big group of Swordfish? The Japanese can remain outside the range of any British carrier borne aircraft and simply pummel them at will. So the British see a huge Japanese raid coming on radar, what are they going to do about it? Fulmars vs 40-90 Zeros? How many planes did Prince of Wales and Repulse shoot down? And those were big twin engine planes that should be easier to hit than a Val. Or a Kate after Val's have plastered your ship several times and reduced your AA ability.
Think about the Bismarck fight. Epic battle in British history. Any Japanese carrier with 12-18 Kate's would have dispatched Bismarck without breaking a sweat.
Actually it would be 4 armored carriers vs 6 Japanese carrier's. Air complement illustrious 36, Formidable 40, Victorious 36, Indomitable 45, total 157. The 6 Japanese carrier's at Pearl Harbor carried 414 total aircraft. They launched 89 Kate's on the 1st wave and 54 Kate's on the 2nd wave. That's 143 torpedo bombers alone vs 157 total aircraft on all 4 armored carriers. They launched 51 Val's on the 1st wave and 78 Val's on the 2nd wave, a total of 129 Val's vs 157 total aircraft on the British ships. They had 43 Zeros on the 1st wave and 36 Zeros on the 2nd wave, 48 remained with the fleet for CAP.I wouldn't be so quick to write off the RN. Remember who inspired the Japanese to conceive the Pearl harbour attack. Why would the RN have to leave out its Martlets (wildcats)? By 1942 the RN and the FAA were the epitome of sea borne air defence. Their radar guided intercepts were very effective in the Mediterranean against numerous and highly efficient German and Italian land based air forces. The combined defence of Martlets/Sea Hurricanes and Fulmars were superb in operation Pedestal. Just as ADM Sommerville tried, The RN would attempt a night torpedo attack with their ASR equipped Albacores and Swordfish. If its four RN armoured carriers vs four fragile Japanese carriers I will call it a toss up.
Actually it would be 4 armored carriers vs 6 Japanese carrier's. Air complement illustrious 36, Formidable 40, Victorious 36, Indomitable 45, total 157. The 6 Japanese carrier's at Pearl Harbor carried 414 total aircraft. They launched 89 Kate's on the 1st wave and 54 Kate's on the 2nd wave. That's 143 torpedo bombers alone vs 157 total aircraft on all 4 armored carriers. They launched 51 Val's on the 1st wave and 78 Val's on the 2nd wave, a total of 129 Val's vs 157 total aircraft on the British ships. They had 43 Zeros on the 1st wave and 36 Zeros on the 2nd wave, 48 remained with the fleet for CAP.
What do the British use for strike aircraft? Swordfish? Fulmars? If I were the Japanese I would just remain out of range of retaliation when I launched my first strike. I would point out that while the armored carriers were tough, I doubt they were tougher than the Prince of Wales.
How many strikes during pedestal were escorted? Zeros have a way of disrupting intercepting fighters. I think if the Japanese had been covering the Mediterranean instead of the Germans they would have stopped the Royal Navy. I think they would have also sunk the USS Hornet when she brought in the 2 loads of Spitfires.
The light empty weight of the Buffalo doesn't look right. Is that without armour, self sealing tanks or ammunition? The Vanguard's nearly 1,000 lbs. more of empty weight must something that the Buffalo is missing.
I understand what your saying and yes there is also the fog of war etc. and under perfect conditions an escort carrier with a load of Swordfish could sneak up on and sink an Essex class carrier or even a Midway. But, with 157 mostly second rate or obsolete British naval aircraft such as Swordfish, Fulmars and maybe Sea Hurricanes, vs 414 Zeros, Val's and Kate's flown by some of If not the best pilots in the world at that time, who do you really think is going to win? I mean yes, I might fight mike Tyson and win by sneaking up behind him and hitting him in the head with a 9 pound sledgehammer, but the other 999 times out of 1000 I don't have a chance. I would imagine that if they had gone to war the Japanese might have looked for and found the entire British navy. I mean come on, they couldn't even sneak in 1 battleship, 1 battlecruiser and 2 destroyers. Again, if I had to bet the farm on that battle I would go with the Japanese.To "stay out of range".you actually have to know where the enemy is located. Experience at Midway indicates reliance on airborne scouting wasn't terribly effective for the Japanese. A British force could get in close, guided by radar at night and hit the Japanese carriers before they knew what was happening. Also don't disregard the British submarine threat. This is multi-domain naval warfare not "I have more carriers and aircraft than you".
You are assuming the Japanese could have found the Bismark in the first place
Big difference in attacking in daylight in the Pacific (most of the time) vs dusk/night in the North Atlantic.
How much did radar on the Swordfish help them locate the the Bismark to make the attack runs?
Let's also note that the AA suite on the Prince of Wales was pretty much 2nd rate while the Repulse was 3rd rate (at best).
I am not saying the Bismark was first rate but it had some definite advantages (and a few disadvantages) in it's AA suite.
The RN had a carrier in the Indian Ocean, HMS Hermes. In preparation for deployment to Singapore Hermes should have been updated with a crash barrier and raised to flush aft flight deck. Without an extensive and expensive remake of the lifts non-folding Martlets, Seafires and Hurricanes won't fit, and folding Fulmars are too long. Leave the Swordfish, load up with Buffaloes, they'll fit, as I show below where I've scaled the aircraft to the hangar, I've omitted the forward lift but the dims are accurate. Force Z should have sailed with Hermes, maybe they all die, we'll see.As for giving air cover to the RN, if would have to be the all weather day or night Beaufighter.
I'd say a load of Buffaloes would probably have been enough to protect Force Z against unescorted Japanese twin engine bombersThe RN had a carrier in the Indian Ocean, HMS Hermes. In preparation for deployment to Singapore Hermes should have been updated with a crash barrier and raised to flush aft flight deck. Without an extensive and expensive remake of the lifts non-folding Martlets and Hurricanes won't fit. Leave the Swordfish, load up with Buffaloes, they'll fit, as I show below where I've scaled the aircraft to the hangar, I've omitted the forward lift , but the sims are accurate. Force Z should have sailed with Hermes, maybe they all die, we'll see.
View attachment 559628
I was assuming that Bismarck had been found and a daylight attack. Mainly just making the point that the actual ability to sink Bismarck would have not been an issue for a single Japanese fleet carrier in 1941. As for Bismarck AA, if Zeroes or A5M's strafe first, then Val's get a few hits, AA will be seriously reduced for the Kate's and 9 Kate's off each bow should be more than sufficient to end Bismarck's careerYou are assuming the Japanese could have found the Bismark in the first place
Big difference in attacking in daylight in the Pacific (most of the time) vs dusk/night in the North Atlantic.
How much did radar on the Swordfish help them locate the the Bismark to make the attack runs?
Let's also note that the AA suite on the Prince of Wales was pretty much 2nd rate while the Repulse was 3rd rate (at best).
I am not saying the Bismark was first rate but it had some definite advantages (and a few disadvantages) in it's AA suite.
Get PoW's radar fully operational and coordinating with Hermes' CAG and I'd say Force Z survives, mainly because with air power Phillips doesn't have to send his force up the Gulf of Thailand to search for IJA landings, thus keeping out of easy range of IJN land based strike aircraft. I'd sail the lot to Ceylon to await Indomitable and further reinforcements, including folding Martlets, if Hermes survives well into 1942.I'd say a load of Buffaloes would probably have been enough to protect Force Z against unescorted Japanese twin engine bombers
Sounds like a reasonable plan/assessment of how it might have worked out differently.Get PoW's radar fully operational and coordinating with Hermes' CAG and I'd say Force Z survives, mainly because with air power Phillips doesn't have to send his force up the Gulf of Thailand to search for IJA landings, thus keeping out of easy range of IJN land based strike aircraft. I'd sail the lot to Ceylon to await Indomitable and further reinforcements, including folding Martlets, if Hermes survives well into 1942.
View attachment 559636
Of course Force Z had eight Shagbats so sailing up the Gulf without conducting aerial reconnaissance wasn't necessary even without Hermes. The book Bloody Shambles writes that one Walrus was launched, being over PoW and Repulse when they were sunk, before flying to Singapore to report on the sinking. This, and not telling RAF where you are makes Phillips the RN's worst utilizer of readily available air capability since Guy D'Oyly-Hughes
Tiger was on a par with the Kongo class before they were upgraded to Battleships. Iron Duke class had central turret space below which could have housed more powerful boilers. Washington Treaty doesn't insist on scrapping, just demilitarisation, so remove half the guns in 1931/32. Japan walks out the League of Nations, then 33-36, you rebuild Tiger and the Iron Duke class suitable for WW2 in the Far East, honour is satisfied. America won't do anything as we were giving them favourable trading terms in the Empire at that time. Should have given Erin and Agincourt to the Indians after WW1 so that they had a navy.
For the Revenge class it was water consumption. They could not venture far without the boilers and crew suffering from dehydration.The problem with the older battleships as I understand it (from Neptune's Inferno) was fuel consumption
As an academic exercise it would be interesting to compare a four AFD carrier RN CBG of 1945 with Sea Fury and Griffon-powered Barracuda vs. four hypothetical IJN carriers with A7M, B7A and D4Y. The Japanese still did not have useable radar by 1945, and the Brits are now utilizing deck parks to field large CAGs and have expertly trained and experienced damage control, AA and air crews, so I'm not giving the Japanese an easy win.