F-22 vs....

I don't think the F-22 stealth capability is as worthwhile as Lockheed like to make out. What is without doubt (in my mind) is the worth of the avionics system, most importantly the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) system. The F-22 is equipped with the AN/APG-77 AESA which gives the Raptor the ability to track more targets at a longer distance than the Typhoon as well as provide ECM for itself while being a lot harder to jam by the opponents ECMs. The Typhoon will not be equipped with AMSAR (Europes AESA) until 2010, at least.

The simple fact that the F-22 is equipped with AESA while the Typhoon still operates a mechanical radar system makes the F-22 a superior fighting machine.

Soren said:

I didn't get any ideas buddy, the EF Typhoon has the best most sophisticated pilots interface in the world, and its pilots wear the best G-suit in the world as-well, the Libelle suit.

And the F-22 is not any more maneuverable than the EF, the EF can sustain 9 G's for as long as there is fuel, the F-22 cannot. Furthermore the Libelle suit means that the EF pilot can stand higher forces than the F-22 pilot, again an advantage to the EF.

And since they're both equally fast and have the same service ceiling they're very close.

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Soren, simply put you are wrong. Very wrong.

I have NO clue where you are getting your data from. You claim in other posts to want politic free discussions yet you bring up this information which is clearly flawed.

The F-22 as it is is capable of manuvers the Typhoon II could only dream of, and its electronics suite isn't nearly as capable or powerful. Every single thing mentioned in the Cockpit and Flight systems of the Typhoon II is also available "Out of the Box" on the F-22. You throw out random information that only says what the Typhoon II has in it, but absolutely no information on the capabilities.

If the Typhoon II was indeed even near the level of the F-22, why is the Typhoon II considered a 4.5 generation fighter and not the 5th generation the F-22 is currently sitting in?


1.) The F-22's Pratt Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans produce 35,000+ lb each, the Typhoon II's Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan produce 20,250+ lbs each. THe F-22 loaded weight is 55,352lbs, the Typhoon II's is 34,280lbs. 1.26 lbs of thrust per lb of airplane for the F-22 vs. 1.18 for the Typhoon II. Advantage: F-22

2.) F-22 max speed: Mach 2+ (true number is still top secret, but Metz, the Lockheed test pilot once claimed Mach 2.42) Typhoon II: Mach 2. F-22 supercruise speed Mach 1.7, Typhoon II supercruise speed Mach 1.2. The F-22's rate of climb is known to be significantly better than the F-15C (254 m/s) (but it is top secret still), the Typhoon II's rate of climb is about 315 m/s. Advantage: F-22

3.) F-22 wing loading: 66 lb/ft², Typhoon II wing loading: 63.7 lb/ft². Advantage: Typhoon II.

4.) F-22 has thrust vectoring, independent moving elevons, advanced digital fly-by-wire, In fact the Typhoon II sales information contains data on its manuverablity over most of the current generation 4.5 and 4.0 fighters, but no information at all mentioned about the F-22. If you were trying to sell the Typhoon II wouldn't you make that a point? I know I would especially when trying to sell my aircraft. PS: only the German Air Force and Austrian Air Force wear the Libelle. Everyone else wears the faggots (FCAGTs). The F-22 can do Herbst maneuver (or J-turn), Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit, none of which the Typhoon II is capable of. The F-22 is also known to be able to pull a minimum radius turn in less space than the Su-35 which was known to have one of the best minium turns in the books.

5.) Stealth. The F-22 has stealth capabilities above and beyond anything the Typhoon II has. The Typhoon II has a RCS under one square meter (best guesses say .8 ). The F-22 is known to have a better RCS than the F-117 which is about .025. The F-22 can carry a rather complete weapons suite internally. The Typhoon II cannot. As soon as you hang weapons on the Typhoon II the RCS only gets worse. Advantage: F-22

6.) Radar system. The F-22 is fitted with the AN/APG-77 AESA radar tied to the AN/ALR-94 passive system, which radar has an estimated range of 125-150 miles, though planned upgrades will allow a range of 250 miles, the system is so advanced that the F-22 can loiter outside the combat radius and serve as a type of AWACS system. Even the new CAESAR of the Typhoon II cant compete. It has about half the processing power and approximately 75% of the range. Advantage: F-22



I think that about covers it. If you wish to blather on, feel free to do so. My posting on this topic is done, as I've covered all the primary topics of the two jets in detail.

I've talked to (and had dinner with, in full mess dress) F-22 pilots from the 27th, and the 192d.

EM,

The F-22 isn't on the comparison list for the simple reason that no information on the F-22 has been made available for comparison. Now if the F-22 Raptor could easily beat the EF why then has the US been unwilling to stack it up against the EF Typhoon ?

And as for maneuverability, again the F-22 isn't any better, the EF can sustain a higher amount of G forces in a turn for a longer amount of time than any other fighter in the world, and one can in great part thank the wing design for that. Now the F-22 does have better low speed maneuverability by virtue of its thrust vectoring, infact I've heard it's the best in the world (Better than the Sukhoi series in service), but lets face it, the dogfights of today don't occur at low speed but at very high speeds. (And you're not going to pull a cobra maneuver at high speed)

And so regarding the cobra maneuver, well what good is it ? The now very old SAAB Draken J-35 can do this maneuver as-well, and so can the old MIG-29, so are they better dogfighters than the rest ? Not even close.

The only real advantage the F-22 seems to have is its stealth capability, cause the EF is just as fast and maneuverable.

FLYBOYJ said:

Can you be 100% sure of that?

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Can we be 100% sure about anything regarding both of these fighters FLYBOYJ ?

Now IF the F-22 was capable of this, then I'm sure it would've been advertized quite allot, just like the cobra maneuver capability. But that's just my opinion.

Soren said:

The only real advantage the F-22 seems to have is its stealth capability, cause the EF is just as fast and maneuverable.

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Soren, I don't want to pig-pile, but you don't really believe that statement, do you? The only advantage? EM gave a rather succinct list of advantages (not necessarily in the priority I would have chosen), but advantages nonetheless. And you think all the eggs are in the stealth basket? And you are arguing a high speed distance encounter with an F-22? How many AMRAAMs can you absorb before you suffer the luxury of detecting your adversary? The EF is a most capable airplane. No doubt about it. But the inherent ability of the F-22 to disseminate battlefield situation awareness to local assets is bar-none in BVR. Anyway, why no direct comparisons by USAF between F-22 and EF? Exactly, why? You are selling the EF on the world market. The US/Raptor is not. Why would the USAF engage in such silliness for no advantage gained? Its not a fear issue. Please. It's common sense for God's sake as to why those capabilities are kept close to the chest.

And from what little I have heard, even at close range, getting guns on a Raptor is not assured. Perhaps straight boresight with a Mk I eyeball, but that is a last resort in a radar directed cannon in a 3-D/high g fight. And now you are quickly making equivocations about a 5th generation AESA equipped fighter having suffered multiple failures in battlespace management to end up in a one-on-one Lufbery with an opponent seeking to more even the odds. Not smart battle doctrine.

Matt, tell me, how much do we actually know about these 5th generation systems, truthfully ?

It's no wonder that the US would want to keep tight about the F-22's software, but its maneuverability is obviously not such a big secret as for them to avoid public airshows and publicity mock up dogfights between it and the F-15 Eagle. So why is it that they haven't accepted pitting it up against the EF Typhoon ? The fighter of one of its Allies. If the F-22 is clearly superior then doing it and demonstrating a clear win would only mean gaining its reputation.

My opinion is that perhaps these two a/c are so close in terms of fighter vs fighter capabilities that the US can see no reason for risking having any of the a/c's weaknesses revealed?

The only thing we know the F-22 has a real advantage in is stealth, as besides being covered by RAM has its primary load out hidden away, minimizing both drag and radar signature.

Now overall I would agree that the F-22 is a slightly better fighter than the EF, but one also has to remember the price tag as the F-22 is one VERY expensive a/c.

Soren said:

?? Do you want me to name a book for you or something mkloby ? These a re some very new a/c so I doubt any book covers this subject.

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Thanks for the links I'll definitely check them out. Soren, please don't be obnoxious because you have little fact to back up your opinions. I asked what source you had for claiming advantages like the EF's cockpit interface being superior to the F-22, not what book. One point is that much surrounding the F-22 is classified, and unless you hold a US Top Secret clearance - you don't truly know what the a/c is capable of. You can compare equipment and known items about the aircraft like EM did - and if I was relying upon air superiority to conduct assualt support, I'd want none other than the F-22.

As to where I know this from, well I've talked to EF pilots for one and I've read allot about both a/c, and one thing which is always mentioned is the Eurofighter's state of the art pilots interface and cockpit ergonomics being the best in the world.

You seem to have a hard time admitting superiority of anything American, and when you do you always make it conditional.

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Soren said:

Can we be 100% sure about anything regarding both of these fighters FLYBOYJ ?

Now IF the F-22 was capable of this, then I'm sure it would've been advertized quite allot, just like the cobra maneuver capability. But that's just my opinion.

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Well you're entitled to your opinion - I worked on the YF-22 before I left Lockheed - let's just say that Lockheed (and the USAF) have always sprung "surprises" on the public with regards to aircraft and capability. I need not say more...

Both aircraft are very capable but I'm in agreement with Plan D about the radar - I've seen both mechanical and AESA radars and that alone is a big difference.

It's funny - I remember similar arguments when the F-15 and Tornado first came out...

The Tornado was never comparable to the F-15 as a fighter, nor as a ground-attack platform until the introduction of the GR.4. In fact, the Tornado was an over-priced piece of sh*t !

plan_D said:

The Tornado was never comparable to the F-15 as a fighter, nor as a ground-attack platform until the introduction of the GR.4. In fact, the Tornado was an over-priced piece of sh*t !

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My point....

Soren said:

EM,


And as for maneuverability, again the F-22 isn't any better, the EF can sustain a higher amount of G forces in a turn for a longer amount of time than any other fighter in the world, and one can in great part thank the wing design for that. Now the F-22 does have better low speed maneuverability by virtue of its thrust vectoring, infact I've heard it's the best in the world (Better than the Sukhoi series in service), but lets face it, the dogfights of today don't occur at low speed but at very high speeds. (And you're not going to pull a cobra maneuver at high speed)

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Wrong. The F-22 can do Herbst maneuver (or J-turn), Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit, none of which the Typhoon II is capable of. The F-22 has a better minimum radius turn at all speeds over the Typhoon II. Blather on all you want about sustaining a higher G turn, but you have no proof that the F-22 isn't capable of doing the same thing. The F-22 can out manuver the Typhoon II at all speeds.

And so regarding the cobra maneuver, well what good is it ? The now very old SAAB Draken J-35 can do this maneuver as-well, and so can the old MIG-29, so are they better dogfighters than the rest ? Not even close.

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The MiG-29 CANNOT do the Pugachev's Cobra unless it starts at a 30 degree entry angle. It still does not change the fact that the Typhoon II cannot do the manuver. Period.

The only real advantage the F-22 seems to have is its stealth capability, cause the EF is just as fast and maneuverable.

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No, the F-22 is faster by .42 mach at top speed, faster by .5 mach in supercruise. That is a considerable number and far from you claim that the Typhoon II is just as fast. If you really think .42 mach and .5 mach are "just as fast" you really need to do some more work on exactly what "fast" is. I've already touched on all your so called claims about manuverability.

As for costs, the Typhoon II flyaway cost per plane is currently 122.5 mil in 2007 dollars. The F-22 is $137.5 million per plane in 2008 dollars. Considering the capabilities the F-22 has over the Typhoon II in just about every category its money well spent.

Better manueverability makes a better airplane. Tell that to Richard Bong. It's a specious argument anyway. The superiority of an airplane is the sum of its capabilities (technical, training, maintenence). With 3 times the detection range of adversaries with AESA, ability to counter air-to-air missiles in flight (yeah I wrote that right), orders of magnitude more likely to be undetected, ability to share airspace order of battle with nearby assets, unmatched supercruise and a fly away cost that is no longer as 'outrageous' due to the declining dollar, amounts to a platform that is leaps and bounds ahead of anything in the air (unclassified).

And I still say that Japan will eventually get some. And Australia has stated a real interest now that they have given the classified AESA capabilities of the F/A-18F to those who hold the purse strings.

I say Japan, Saudi Arabia and possibly Israel all end up getting the F-22 eventually. I know that England and Australia are rather hot for the F-35 currently, but that remains to be seen once they reach operational status.

I have to agree EM, mkloby and Matt here. I do not see any evidence that proves that the Typhoon is superior to the F-22.

Soren please post facts that will prove your point. You have not posted a single one yet. You post facts about the EF but you have not posted anything saying that the F-22 is inferior to the Typhoon. It is all your opinion and based off the fact that you dont like anything that is American.

Basically I am saying put up the facts or give up.

Just a thought. The Raptor is of course a brilliant plane, with vector thrust, stealth, advanced weapons and everything and I doubt any a/c in the world can be totally superior. But what use will it have in the wars of today? Today's wars seem to be more like anti guerilla wars than the wars of the past. Is having a technical brilliant, sophisticated and expensive a/c not something of the past? It looks like overkill to me. It'll probably never has to fight it's (almost) equals.
Wouldn't it have been much better to use these billions of dollars to build less sophisticated, but very useful ground attack a/c in much higher numbers, which by the numbers and costs makes you much more flexible in these kind of wars with probably the same punch as the Raptor.

One word...

China

Marcel - you have a good point. Matt puts it succinctly as to the need for an air superiority fighter. There is a need for it, as to have nothing for that role would leave you vulnerable. However, many think that the F-35 would have been a much better return on investment due to the joint nature of the program. Interestingly, there was a push in the Air Force to look into an attack variant of the T-6, but that ended up dead I believe.

Is the US the only nation that openly is concerned about the Chinese? And they are our leading trade partner, so a direct confrontation is unlikely, but another Vietnam where ideals are contested with technology is highly likely based upon historical precedent. Europe has no interest there, huh?

Matt308 said:

Is the US the only nation that openly is concerned about the Chinese? And they are our leading trade partner, so a direct confrontation is unlikely, but another Vietnam where ideals are contested with technology is highly likely based upon historical precedent. Europe has no interest there, huh?

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The chinese shure as hell are willing to do whatever it takes to make China the greatest country on the planet. They have already proved they don't much care what the US thinks. Take a look at all the cyber attacks against the US they are already doing.

China should scare the hell outta the US military and govenment.