f4f-c...

[Anonymous]

Max,

I'd be interested in any information you have on the Corsair or any WWII aircraft!

As for the assumption that all new units were equip'd with the -4 in the last six or so months of the war, I don't know that this is valid. There was more than one Corsair factory, Goodyear made about 2300 FG-1D's (-1d's) Brewster made a little over 700 F3A-1's (-1d's). These came into action later than the Vought -1d's and may well have overlapped the -4 deployments. It's hard to find good info on exactly when they were delivered so ????

Also, there is some confusion in the naming process for the "B" model. During WWII, "B" meant "for the RNAF", i.e. "British". These were -4's with shortened wing panels - about 160 were built. The US cannon armed planes were the -4C's, about 297 were built but it is not clear when they were deployed because they are not distinguisnable from the -4 by BU number.

All F4U-4's were built with universal gun carriages (edgewater mounts) for the inner 4 guns. These could carry either .50's or M3 20mm's. I think this was done to simplify production.

As you will see in the attached document, the -4B's were produced for the British before the -4's were produced for the USN. You will have to scroll down a fair ways to find the Corsair info, which includes BU production blocks.

After the war, the naming was changed, and the -4C's became -4B's, the British having pushed their -4B's over the sides of their carriers to avoid having to pay for them under the terms of lend-lease (what a tragedy!).

=S=

Lunatic

 

[maxs75]

"As for the assumption that all new units were equip'd with the -4 in the last six or so months of the war, I don't know that this is

valid. There was more than one Corsair factory, Goodyear made about 2300 FG-1D's (-1d's) Brewster made a little over 700 F3A-1's (-1d's).

These came into action later than the Vought -1d's and may well have overlapped the -4 deployments. It's hard to find good info on exactly

when they were delivered so ???? "

It's a pleasure to discuss with you. This is a very good point. If I had thought about it before I never had made the assumption. It's

really likely that FG-1D were delivered at the same time as F4U-4.
AFAIK F3A had many problems and the production line was closed during 1944 IIRC. The production was cut back before than it was planned.

Most of F3A were delivered to FAA and the USN ones were used for training only.



Thanks for pointing out the F4U-4B/C mess. I knew about the sea dumping of F4U, but I ever guessed that it was after VJ. Wasn't it?
If it happened during WW2 why don't reassign them to USN?



"I've seen it stated several times that the new Essex class carriers (I believe 7 new ones deployed for Okinawa) had the F4U-4 as their

main fighter, but no unit info is given. "

The the fast carrier fleet deployed for Okinawa was largerly the same as for the earlier IwoJima operation.
Only
Shangri-la' CV-38 (with VBF-85 F4U (-1D I guess, since It wasn't -1C or -4 ) and VF-85 F4U-1C as I learned here) and
Bon Homme Richard CV-31 (with VFN-91 F6F-5N) went in action for the first time.
Ticonderoga CV-14 came back after battle damage repairs, as well as some CVLs.
Anyway several new air groups went in action for the first time. (the sustained rythm of operations forced the air groups turnover).
If you are really interested I can write down the order of battle that I reconstructed from variuos statements. It's intersting because the

VF and VBF squadrons had a mix of F6F and F4U. Generally the F6F were in the VF and F4U in the VBF, but with several exceptions. Moreover,

in several carriers the VBF squadron was substituted by two smaller Corsair USMC VMF squadrons.



"I'd be interested in any information you have on the Corsair or any WWII aircraft! "
Do you already know the problems in putting the F4Us in the most modern Royal Navy carriers?

Max

 

[Anonymous]

It's a pleasure to discuss with you. This is a very good point. If I had thought about it before I never had made the assumption. It's

Most of F3A were delivered to FAA and the USN ones were used for training only.

I believe this is true - in fact Brewster was sued by the government after the war and forced out of business because of this. However, I know some Brewster Corsairs did see action - but I agree it was very few.[/quote]

Thanks for pointing out the F4U-4B/C mess. I knew about the sea dumping of F4U, but I ever guessed that it was after VJ. Wasn't it?
If it happened during WW2 why don't reassign them to USN?

Yes it was after VJ day. The terms of lend-lease stated that durable items such as aircraft had to be returned or destroyed within a set number of months after the end of the war - I think it was 4 months, maybe 6 months - or they had to be paid for. Several billion $ of the lend-lease obligation was satisfied in this way by the UK, and then almost all of the remaining $21 billion or so was forgiven anyway.

"I've seen it stated several times that the new Essex class carriers (I believe 7 new ones deployed for Okinawa) had the F4U-4 as their main fighter, but no unit info is given. "

The the fast carrier fleet deployed for Okinawa was largerly the same as for the earlier IwoJima operation.
Only
Shangri-la' CV-38 (with VBF-85 F4U (-1D I guess, since It wasn't -1C or -4 ) and VF-85 F4U-1C as I learned here) and
Bon Homme Richard CV-31 (with VFN-91 F6F-5N) went in action for the first time.
Ticonderoga CV-14 came back after battle damage repairs, as well as some CVLs.
Anyway several new air groups went in action for the first time. (the sustained rythm of operations forced the air groups turnover).

If you are really interested I can write down the order of battle that I reconstructed from variuos statements. It's intersting because the VF and VBF squadrons had a mix of F6F and F4U. Generally the F6F were in the VF and F4U in the VBF, but with several exceptions. Moreover, in several carriers the VBF squadron was substituted by two smaller Corsair USMC VMF squadrons.

As far as I know the F4U-1c's were only used by the VMF's - the first squadrons being deployed to Okinawa via the USS Breton and Sitko Bay (CVL's).

It would be interesting to see the order of battle if it does in fact reveal what squadrons had what types of planes.

"I'd be interested in any information you have on the Corsair or any WWII aircraft! "

Do you already know the problems in putting the F4Us in the most modern Royal Navy carriers?

Max

Yes, the wings had to be cropped for them to fit into the British Carriers. The whole British carrier thing is kind of interesting. The RN did develop some very good landing control systems, but the steel flight deck was a very questionable design decision.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[maxs75]

RG_Lunatic,
we have to have some further discussion.


"Yes it was after VJ day. The terms of lend-lease stated that durable items such as aircraft had to be returned or destroyed within a set

number of months after the end of the war - I think it was 4 months, maybe 6 months - or they had to be paid for. Several billion $ of the

lend-lease obligation was satisfied in this way by the UK, and then almost all of the remaining $21 billion or so was forgiven anyway. "

Why not return them to USA? They hadn't to pay anyway. They should have thrown away the older F4U-1 instead of the -4
Second question. The first F4U-4 was delivered in oct. 1944. If the -4B were built before the USN ones, they had to be -4B for RN.
It was almost a year before they were dumped into the sea. AFAIK they had no british name (like Corsair MkV). Were did they go in that

timeframe? Is it your assumption (that they were built before USN -4s) due only by Bu. no.? The 4B had 63XXX numbers, while 4 had 8XX,

but isn't it possible that the RN were built after the USN ones? Maybe it was only an administrative number. Assigned earlier, but built

later. If you look at the F7F Bu. No. you'll see that F7F-3 had 69XXX while some -2N and -1N had 8XX. What's your explanation?


"Yes, the wings had to be cropped for them to fit into the British Carriers. "

It's right but It'not the whole story. I think that it's intersting for you.
RN operated 6 modern fleet carriers (plus Ark Royal sunk in 1941).
They were:
Illustrious, Formidable, Victorious; completed in 1940-early 1941
Indomitable (modified Illustrious); end 1941
Implacable, Indefatigable. middle 1944

They were very similar, but with some differences, important for the airwing.
The first 3 had a single hangar, with 16 feet height. As you know they needed to clip F4U wingtips.
Indomitable was completed later, and it was decided to fit a second small hangar to increase air group (i.e. two hangar decks).
The last two had a bigger second hangar. Anyway the two hangars ships (i.e. the last three CVs) had a decreased hangar heigth. 14 feet

only. So they can't fold Corsair's wings anyway in the hangar. If you look at the fighter historically embarked in each of them in 1944-45,

Indomitable only used Hellcats (rearward folding wings) and the other two Seafire and Firefly (and sometimes Hellcats). No Corsairs. I

guess that the small hangar heigth of those carriers was the reason of the odd Z-like Seafire III folding mechanism. (BTW how did the

Firefly MkI fold its wings? Do you have a picture?).
BTW Another interesting curiosity is about RN carrier lifts.
The first three (1940-41 group) had only two elevators with a small width, unable to operate an unfolded airplane. So, when the first Sea

Hurricane and Seafire came into service, they couldn't be embarked on them, because they could not go into the hangars (They had no folding

wings). The compromise was to embark a small Seafire number (usually 5), always parked on the flight deck. This is the reason why during

Torch landing (north Africa, 1942) the fleet carriers had only Martlet and Fulmar fighters, while the RN US built CVEs and the very old

british carriers were crowded with Seafires.
Indomitable instead always operated a large number of Sea Hurricane or Seafire during 1942-43.

I know that not all F4U had folding wing (like the FG-1, but not FG-1D) but It is not an easy matter. Can you summarize it for me?



Okinawa fleet carrier air groups:

CV-6 Enterprise CVG(N)-90 (night air group), with VF(N)-90 (F6F-5N) and VT(N)-90 (TBM-3D). No bomber. She was damaged various times.
CV-9 Essex: CVG-83 with VF-83 F6F, VBF-83 F4U
CV-10 Yorktown: CVG-9 with VF and VBF-9 F6F
CV-11 Intrepid (disabled in april): CVG-10 with VF and VBF-10 F4U-1/-4
CV-12 Hornet: CVG-17 with VF and VBF-17 F6F
CV-13 Franklin (disabled in march, nearly sunk): CVG-5 with VF-5 F4U, VMF 214 and 452 F4U
CV-14 Ticonderoga (from may) CVG-87 F6F only
CV-15 Randolph (from april) CVG-12 F6F only
CV-17 Bunker Hill (disabled in may): CVG-84 with VF-84 F4U, VMF-221 and 451 F4U
CV-18 Wasp (disabled in march): CVG-81 VF-81 F6F, VMF-216 and 217 F4U, possibly no Bomber.
CV-19 Hancock (disabled in april): CVG-6 VF-6 F6F, VBF-6 F4U (F4U-4)
CV-20 Bennington: CVG-82 with VF-82 F6F, VMF 112 and 123 F4U.
CV-31 (from june) CVG(N)-91: like CVG(N)-90
CV-38 (from may) CVG-85 with VF-85 and VBF-85 with F4U-1D (not -1C, OK?)
Each carrier had also a VB squadron (i.e. VB-83 for CV-83) with SB2C Helldiver (all but night carriers and possibly Wasp) and a VT squadron

with TBM Avenger. Each VF/VBF squadron had about 36 fighters, and VMF squadrons 18 F4U. Possibly the VF-81 had up to 54 Hellcats.
All VF squadrons had at least 4 F6F-5N (or maybe -3N), included the Corsairs units.
About 6-7 CVLs were around at various times, all with a VF squadron with F6F.

The smaller CVEs had a VC (composite) squadron with FM and TBM
The bigger CVEs had a VF with F6F (also F6F-5N), but from may some of them had a Marines CVEG with a VMF squadron (F4U). I have more

precise data also about them, if you are intersted.

Three "Task Groups" of fast carriers were involved in the campaign. Its composition varied, but usually it was composed by 2-3 CV, 2CVLs

and escort ships.
TG 58.1 was composed by CV-12 and 20, plus CVL-24 and 30,
TG 58.2 was soon disbanded due to ships damges,
TG 58.3 had CV-9, 17, 19 (later CV-15) and CVLs,
TG 58.4 had CV-10, 11 (later CV-14 and 38) plus CVL-22 and 27.

The CVEs were grouped in TG 52.1, divided in 3 Task elements, each of them had about 6 CVEs.


Max

 

[Anonymous]

RG_Lunatic,
we have to have some further discussion.

Yes it was after VJ day. The terms of lend-lease stated that durable items such as aircraft had to be returned or destroyed within a set number of months after the end of the war - I think it was 4 months, maybe 6 months - or they had to be paid for. Several billion $ of the lend-lease obligation was satisfied in this way by the UK, and then almost all of the remaining $21 billion or so was forgiven anyway.

Why not return them to USA? They hadn't to pay anyway. They should have thrown away the older F4U-1 instead of the -4

Well, it is all very confusing. From US production info it is clear that about 160 F4U-4's were produced for the British (or perhaps the Aussies?). But from the fleet air arm we have the following:

Fleet Air Arm history

Total FAA 1939-1945: 2,012 Corsairs served with the FAA.
First delivered to RN: May 1943 to British Admiralty Delegation at US Floyd Bennet Field, New York, USA (JT102)
First squadron 1939-1945: August 1943 to 1835 sqdn at Quonset Point, USA
Operational squadrons: August 1943 to 1835 sqdn at Quonset Point, USA
Last served with RN Aircraft still delivered post-war. The final delivered aircraft were still serving with 721 sqdn at Kai Tak on
September 1947 (eg KD647)

420 Chance-Vought F3A-1 Corsair III ordered from Brewster Aeronautical Corporation under Contract no A.(S) 172
Serial numbers: JS469-JS888

First to FAA: In April 1944 to 1842 sqdn at Brunswick, Norfolk, Virgina, USA
Last: 794 sqdn at Eglington 1.46 (eg JS482), or JS500 at Henstridge to Belfast
1.46 probably for dumping at sea

70 Chance-Vought F4U-1 Corsair I ordered under Contract No A.(S) 198
Serial numbers: JT100-JT169

First Deld RN May 1943 JT102 – flown by British Admiralty Delegation at US Floyd
Bennet Field, New York, USA 23.11.43

25 Chance-Vought F4U-1 Corsair I ordered under Contract no a.(S) 198.
Serial numbers: JT170-JT194

First Deld RN: August 1943 to 1835 sqdn at Quonset Point, USA

370 Chance-Vought F4U-1A Corsair II ordered under Contract no A.(S) 198.
Serial numbers: JT195-JT564

First Deld RN: November 1943 to 732 sdn at Brunswick, USA

140 Chance-Vought F4U-1A Corsair II ordered under Contract no A.(S) 198.
Serial numbers: JT565-JT704

First Deld RN: October 1944 deld JT566 tested at RNARY Coimbatore

First Sqdn: JT566 to 1836 sqdn in November 1944

10 Chance-Vought F3A-1 Corsair III ordered from Brewster Aeronautical
Corporation under Contract no A.(S) 172.
Serial numbers: JT963-JT972

First deld: August 1944 to Lockheed, Speke (eg JT963)

94 Chance-Vought FG-1A Corsair IV ordered under Contract no Noa(S)1871.
Serial numbers: KD161-KD254

First deld RN To 1850 sqdn from 1 August 1944 (eg KD163), to 1851 sqdn from 1
September 1944 (eg KD162)(first major sqdn 1850 sqdn getting aircraft August-September 1944)

306 Chance-Vought FG-1D Corsair IV ordered under Contract no Noa(S)1871.
Serial numbers: KD255-KD560

First deld RN October 1944 from Lockheed, Renfrew to 23 MU 10.44
Last with RN: KD366 on the Fanara Dump, Egypt April 1947

10 Chance-Vought FG-1 Corsair IV ordered from Goodyear Aircraft Corporation under Contract no a(S)1871
Serial numbers: KD561-KD570

First deld RN: October 1944 RNASU Floyd Bennett Field, USA to 1849 sdqn (eg KD561)

297 Chance-Vought FG-1D Corsair IV ordered from Goodyear Aircraft
Corporation under Contract no Noa(S)1871.
Serial numbers: KD571-KD867

First deld RN: Many shipped – embarked from Norfolk, VA to HMS Ruler, 24.10.44arrived at Greenock 18.11.44, thence transported
from Lockheed Renfrew to 23 MU 12.44. Thence many sent to 1843 sqdn Eglington February 1945
Last RN: 721 sqdn at Kai Tak on September 1947 (eg KD647)

125 Chance-Vought FG-1D Corsair IV ordered from Goodyear Aircraft Corporation under Contract no NOa(S)1871.
Serial numbers: KD868-KD992

First deld RN: December 1944 from Lockheed Renfrew to 23 MU (KD869)

25 Chance-Vought FG-1D Corsair IV ordered from Goodyear Aircraft Corporation under Contract no Noa(S)1871
Serial numbers: KD993-KE117

Chance-Vought FG-1D Corsair IV 120 ordered from Goodyear Aircraft Corporation under Contract no Noa(S)1871
Serial numbers: KE310-KE429. ALL CANCELLED

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Corsair.htm

This evidence seems to indicate that none of the -4B's were actually deployed by the British. Furthermore, I can find no photo evidence of -4 type Corsairs in RN service. Perhaps these were vectored to the Aussies?

As for the dumping of the planes, I'm not exactly sure when it happened but I seem to recall that a good number were dumbed before the end of 1945, which struck me as odd given the uncertainty w.r.t. the Soviets at that time. As for why not to return them? Well, it seems the USA did not want them back - remember, hundreds of P-38's and P-47's were bulldozed right off of cliffs and into the ocean rather than bother to return them to the states. It's painful to think about!

Second question. The first F4U-4 was delivered in oct. 1944. If the -4B were built before the USN ones, they had to be -4B for RN. It was almost a year before they were dumped into the sea. AFAIK they had no british name (like Corsair MkV). Were did they go in that timeframe? Is it your assumption (that they were built before USN -4s) due only by Bu. no.? The 4B had 63XXX numbers, while 4 had 8XX, but isn't it possible that the RN were built after the USN ones? Maybe it was only an administrative number. Assigned earlier, but built later. If you look at the F7F Bu. No. you'll see that F7F-3 had 69XXX while some -2N and -1N had 8XX. What's your explanation?

Yes my assumption is that earlier BU's were used first within the Vought plant, and generally speaking this was usually the case. I have no idea what may have happened to these planes. I figure it is most likely that either they were routed to the Aussies (or even New Zealand) or alternatively they were redesignated as F4U-4C's and deployed into US use???

Yes, the wings had to be cropped for them to fit into the British Carriers.

It's right but It'not the whole story. I think that it's intersting for you. RN operated 6 modern fleet carriers (plus Ark Royal sunk in 1941). They were: Illustrious, Formidable, Victorious; completed in 1940-early 1941. Indomitable (modified Illustrious); end 1941. Implacable, Indefatigable. middle 1944

They were very similar, but with some differences, important for the airwing. The first 3 had a single hangar, with 16 feet height. As you know they needed to clip F4U wingtips. Indomitable was completed later, and it was decided to fit a second small hangar to increase air group (i.e. two hangar decks). The last two had a bigger second hangar. Anyway the two hangars ships (i.e. the last three CVs) had a decreased hangar heigth. 14 feet only. So they can't fold Corsair's wings anyway in the hangar. If you look at the fighter historically embarked in each of them in 1944-45, Indomitable only used Hellcats (rearward folding wings) and the other two Seafire and Firefly (and sometimes Hellcats). No Corsairs. I guess that the small hangar heigth of those carriers was the reason of the odd Z-like Seafire III folding mechanism. (BTW how did the Firefly MkI fold its wings? Do you have a picture?).

I found this photo:

http://www.stringbag.flyer.co.uk/rnhf/wb271.htm

Rather odd mechanism!

BTW Another interesting curiosity is about RN carrier lifts. The first three (1940-41 group) had only two elevators with a small width, unable to operate an unfolded airplane. So, when the first Sea Hurricane and Seafire came into service, they couldn't be embarked on them, because they could not go into the hangars (They had no folding wings). The compromise was to embark a small Seafire number (usually 5), always parked on the flight deck. This is the reason why during Torch landing (north Africa, 1942) the fleet carriers had only Martlet and Fulmar fighters, while the RN US built CVEs and the very old british carriers were crowded with Seafires. Indomitable instead always operated a large number of Sea Hurricane or Seafire during 1942-43.

I know that not all F4U had folding wing (like the FG-1, but not FG-1D) but It is not an easy matter. Can you summarize it for me?

Well, for the most part all F4U's were designed to fold the wings, but in practice the US Marines often removed the mechanism and locked the wings in place. Some Goodyear and possibly Brewster units were delivered sans folding mechanisms. It saved a little weight and simplifed maintainence.

Okinawa fleet carrier air groups:

CV-6 Enterprise CVG(N)-90 (night air group), with VF(N)-90 (F6F-5N) and VT(N)-90 (TBM-3D). No bomber. She was damaged various times.
CV-9 Essex: CVG-83 with VF-83 F6F, VBF-83 F4U
CV-10 Yorktown: CVG-9 with VF and VBF-9 F6F
CV-11 Intrepid (disabled in april): CVG-10 with VF and VBF-10 F4U-1/-4
CV-12 Hornet: CVG-17 with VF and VBF-17 F6F
CV-13 Franklin (disabled in march, nearly sunk): CVG-5 with VF-5 F4U, VMF 214 and 452 F4U
CV-14 Ticonderoga (from may) CVG-87 F6F only
CV-15 Randolph (from april) CVG-12 F6F only
CV-17 Bunker Hill (disabled in may): CVG-84 with VF-84 F4U, VMF-221 and 451 F4U
CV-18 Wasp (disabled in march): CVG-81 VF-81 F6F, VMF-216 and 217 F4U, possibly no Bomber.
CV-19 Hancock (disabled in april): CVG-6 VF-6 F6F, VBF-6 F4U (F4U-4)
CV-20 Bennington: CVG-82 with VF-82 F6F, VMF 112 and 123 F4U.
CV-31 (from june) CVG(N)-91: like CVG(N)-90
CV-38 (from may) CVG-85 with VF-85 and VBF-85 with F4U-1D (not -1C, OK?)
Each carrier had also a VB squadron (i.e. VB-83 for CV-83) with SB2C Helldiver (all but night carriers and possibly Wasp) and a VT squadron with TBM Avenger. Each VF/VBF squadron had about 36 fighters, and VMF squadrons 18 F4U. Possibly the VF-81 had up to 54 Hellcats. All VF squadrons had at least 4 F6F-5N (or maybe -3N), included the Corsairs units. About 6-7 CVLs were around at various times, all with a VF squadron with F6F.

The smaller CVEs had a VC (composite) squadron with FM and TBM
The bigger CVEs had a VF with F6F (also F6F-5N), but from may some of them had a Marines CVEG with a VMF squadron (F4U). I have more
precise data also about them, if you are intersted.

Three "Task Groups" of fast carriers were involved in the campaign. Its composition varied, but usually it was composed by 2-3 CV, 2CVLs

and escort ships.
TG 58.1 was composed by CV-12 and 20, plus CVL-24 and 30,
TG 58.2 was soon disbanded due to ships damges,
TG 58.3 had CV-9, 17, 19 (later CV-15) and CVLs,
TG 58.4 had CV-10, 11 (later CV-14 and 38) plus CVL-22 and 27.

The CVEs were grouped in TG 52.1, divided in 3 Task elements, each of them had about 6 CVEs.

Max

Very good info Max. I will make a link to this info and name it "RN carrier and carrier aircraft info".

Could you please do me a favor and learn to use the {quote} {/quote} tags (using square instead of curly brackets)? By hitting the "quote" button in the upper left when replying, you will get the whole thing in a quote, with nested quotes laid out. All you have to do to break the big quote into smaller sections is put {/quote} at the end of the section you want to reply to, add your reply, and then put {quote="whoever"} at the start of the continuation of the quoted text. This makes things much easier to follow, espeically if there are more than two parties engaging in the disucssion. If you need any help with this just PM me.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[R Leonard]

Did a little more digging and made a couple of phone calls. VBF-86, established on 3 January 1945, was originally equipped with F4U-1Ds, but traded them in before deploying for F4U-4s. The same was true of VBF-94 and VBF-6, both established on 2 January 1945. VBF-10 wase also originally equipped with 1Ds, but exchanged them for -4s in late June 1945 during a two week layover at San Pedro Bay before departing for final end-of-war operations. TF-38 sortied on 1 July 1945. A report I have states:

" . . . Amongst the carriers there had been a good many changes. The Hornet due for refit and damaged by the hurricane had returned to the West Coast, but 4 fresh carriers had joined - Lexington, Hancock, Ticonderoga and Bon Homme Richard, the latter with a Night Air Group. The Air Groups in the carriers were over 50% new, the oldest inhabitants being the Essex and Shangri-La Air Groups with 4 and 3 months respectively in the operational area. The Aircraft complement of the carriers were similar to those in March, the only changes being that 2 of the newly joined carriers were equipped with F4U-4's."

"New carriers" would be Lexington with VBF-94 and Hancock with VBF-6.

Wasp, with VBF-86 flying F4U-4s, did not join TF-38 off the coast of Japan until 26 July 1945.

Carriers and Air Group structures for the final carrier strikes on the Japanese home islands in July and August 1945 were:

USN Carriers and Air Groups, Task Force 38
1 July 1945 to 15 August 1945

Bennington (CV-20) - Capt BL Braun
--Air Group 1 - Comdr HB Harden
---VF-1 - Lieut Comdr MC Hoffman; F6F-5, -5N, -5P
---VBF-1 - Lieut Comdr RP Ross; F4U-1D, FG-1D
---VT-1 - Lieut Comdr RW Ramage; TBM-3/3E
---VB-1 - Lieut M Tyre; SB2C-4/4E

Lexington (CV-10) - Capt TH Robbins, Jr.
--Air Group 94 - Comdr S Mandarich
---VF-94 - Lieut Comdr RJ Morgan; F6F-5, -5N, -5P
---VBF-94 - Lieut Comdr LS Wall, Jr.; F4U-4
---VT-94 - Lieut Comdr FC Bamman; TBM-3E
---VB-94 - Lieut Comdr CH Mester; SB2C-4/4E

Hancock (CV-19) - Capt RF Hickey
--Air Group 6 - Comdr H Miller
---VF-6 - Lieut Comdr RW Schumann, Jr.; F6F-5, -5N
---VBF-6 - Lieut Comdr LM Bigelow; F4U-4
---VT-6 - Lieut Comdr WG Privette; TBM-3E
---VB-6 - Lieut Comdr GP Chase; SB2C-4E

Belleau Wood (CVL-24) - Capt WG Tomlinson
--Air Group 31 - Lieut Comdr BS Weber
---VF-31 - Lieut Comdr Weber; F6F-5, -5N
---VT-31 - Lieut Comdr JR Bowen / Lieut EE Wood; TBM-3/3E

San Jacinto (CVL-30) - Capt MH Kernodle
--Air Group 49 -Lt Comdr GM Rouzee
---VF-49 - Lieut Comdr Rouzee; F6F-5, -5N
---VT-49 - Lieut CH Peters; TBM-3

Randolph (CV-15) - Capt FL Baker/Capt JR Tate (26 July)
--Air Group 16 - Comdr R Davis
---VF-16 - Lieut Comdr CS Moffett; F6F-5, -5N, -5P
---VBF-16 - Lieut Comdr EA Kraft; F6F-5
---VT-16 - Lieut Comdr WR Leonard, Jr.; TBM-3/3E
---VB-16 - Lieut RN McMackin; SB2C-4E

Essex (CV-9) - Capt RL Bowman
--Air Group 83 - Comdr HT Utter
---VF-83 - Lieut Comdr HA Sampson; F6F-5, -5N, -5P
---VBF-83 - Lieut Comdr FC Patriarca; F4U-1D, FG-1D
---VT-83 - Lieut Comdr HA Stewart; TBM-3/3E
---VB-83 - Lieut Comdr JT Crawford; SB2C-4/4E

Monterey (CVL-26) - Capt JB Lyon
-Air Group 34 -Lt Comdr RW Conrad
---VF-34 - Lieut Comdr Conrad; F6F-5, -5P
---VT-34 - Lieut FB Mooney; TBM-3/3P

Bataan (CVL-29) - Capt WC Gilbert
--Air Group 47 -Lt Comdr AH Clancy, Jr
----VF-47 - Lieut Comdr Clancy; F6F-5, -5P
----VT-47 - Lieut Comdr HR Mazza; TBM-3E

Ticonderoga (CV-14) (re-joined 21 July) - Capt W Sinton
--Air Group 87 - Comdr EL Phares
----VF-87 - Lieut Comdr CE Ingalls, Jr.; F6F-5, -5N, -5P
----VBF-87 - Comdr PW Maxwel / Lieut Comdr WA Haas; F6F-5
----VT-87 - Lieut Comdr BA Miles; TBM-3E
----VB-87 - Lieut Comdr FN Kanaga; SB2C-4E

Wasp (CV-18) (joined 26 July after Wake Strike)- Capt WG Switzer
--Air Group 86 - Comdr GR Luker
----VF-86 - Lieut Comdr CJ Dobson; F6F-5, -5N, -5P
----VBF-86 - Lieut Comdr HE Tennes; F4U-4
----VT-86 - Lieut Comdr LF Steffenhagen; TBM-3E
----VB-86 - Lieut Comdr PR Norby; SB2C-4/4E

Yorktown (CV-10) - Capt WF Boone
--Air Group 88 - Comdr SS Searcy, Jr.
----VF-88 - Lieut Comdr RG Crommelin/Lieut MW Cagle; F6F-5, -5N, -5P
----VBF-88 - Lieut Comdr JE Hart; FG-1D
----VT-88 - Lieut Comdr JC Huddleston; TBM-3/3E
----VB-88 - Lieut Comdr JS Elkins; SB2C-4/4E

Shangri La (CV-38)(FF) - Capt JD Barner/Capt R Whitehead (16 Jul)
--Air Group 85 - Comdr WA Sherrill
----VF-85 - Lieut Comdr WW Ford; F4U-1D, F6F-5N, -5P
----VBF-85 - Lieut Comdr SB Strong; F4U-1D, FG-1D
----VT-85 - Lieut Comdr EV Wedell; TBM-3E
----VB-85 - Lieut Comdr AL Maltby, Jr.; SB2C-4E

Bon Homme Richard (CV-31) - Capt AO Rule, Jr.
Night --Air Group 91 -Comdr HM Avery
----VF(N)-91 - Lieut Comdr A Minvielle; F6F-5N
----VT(N)-91 - Lieut Comdr Smith; TBM-3E

Independence (CVL-22) - Capt NM Kindell
--Air Group 27 - Lieut Comdr FA Bardshar;
----VF-27 - Lieut Comdr Bardshar; F6F-5, -5P
----VT-27 - Lieut Comdr J Dooling; TBM-3/3E

Cowpens (CVL-25) - Capt GH DeBaun
--Air Group 50 - Comdr RC Kirkpatrick
----VF-50 - Comdr Kirkpatrick; F6F-5, -5P
----VT-50 - Lieut Comdr CM Melhorn; TBM-3E


RN Carriers and Squadrons - Task Force 37
July – August 1945
(all personnel are RN, except as noted)

Implacable Capt CC Hughes-Hallett, CBE
--880 Squadron - Lt Cdr RM Crosley, DSC (w/Bar); Seafire
--801 Squadron - Lt Cdr S Jewers, RNVR; Seafire
--828 Squadron - Lt Cdr FA Swanton, DSC; TBM
--1771 Squadron - Lt Cdr WRJ MacWhirter, DSC; Firefly

Indefatigable Capt QD Graham, CBE, DSO
-24th Naval Fighter Wing - Lt Cdr NG Hallett, DSC (w/Bar)
--887 Squadron - Lt Cdr AJ Thomson, DSC, RNVR; Seafire
--894 Squadron - Lt Cdr J Crossman, DSO, RNVR; Seafire
--820 Squadron - Lt FL Jones, DSC (w/Bar), RNVR; TBM
--1770 Squadron - Maj VBG Chessman, DSO, MBE, DSC, RM; Firefly

Victorious Capt MM Denny, CB, CBE
-47th Naval Fighter Wing - Lt Col RC Hay, DSO (w/Bar), DSC, RM
--1834 Squadron - Lt Cdr PN Charlton, DFC; F4U
--1836 Squadron - Lt Cdr JB Edmundson, DSC; F4U
--849 Squadron - Lt Cdr AJ Griffiths, RN; TBM

Formidable Capt P Ruck-Keene
-6th Naval Fighter Wing - Lt Cdr RL Bigg-Wither, DSC (w/Bar), RNVR
--1841 Squadron - Lt Cdr Bigg-Wither; F4U
--1842 Squadron - Lt Cdr DG Parker, DSC, RNVR; F4U
--848 Squadron - Lt Cdr TGV Percy; TBM


Also, but having nothing to do with carriers, it would appear the VMF-312 stationed on Okinawa also operated F4U-4s.

Regards,

Rich

 

[maxs75]

Rich,
I am really grateful for your infos.
I'm also happy that my guessing were somehow right. Much of the late war squadrons were equipped with F4U-4, but other like VBF-88 and

VBF-1 still had Goodyear FG-1D, as RG_lunatic noted.
Sorry if I again recall this point: Hancock's VBF-6 in march-april 1945.
Did it followed the history of VBF-10? i.e. originally with -1D, and later -4, or -4 from march. As Intrepid, Hancock was in action from

march for pre-landing strikes, and both ships were damaged during april. You wrote that VBF-94 and 6 were reequipped with F4U-4 before

action (CVG-6 was in action from march, CVG-94 from june), but later the statement says that in july the changes were about the new F4U-4.
I would support the thesis that VBF-6 had F4U-1D in march-april, and -4 in june-august.

If my VBF-6 story is true the first F4U-4 were put into combat by VMF-312 in april 1945, later by VMF-222 (may 1945), and on carriers from

june-july (VBF-6,94,86 and 10). AFAIK Intrepid with air group 10 flew a milk run on Wake in august.

I suspected that the longer range SB2C-5 didn't see combat, or maybe only a few. Possibly the new carriers that were nearly ready

(Antietam, Boxer, Lake Champlain) had them.

Royal Navy British Pacific fleet:
AFAIK FAA Avengers were MkII (TBF/M-1C, while USN had only -3/3E), and Corsairs were MkII or IV (F4U-1A/FG-1D). Seafires were MkIII (Merlin

engine, equal to Spit V. I wonder why FAA never got Seafire version of Spit IX).
Formidable probably had also a det. from 1844 Sqn. with a few Hellcats II (F6F-5/-5P). Not all sources agree, anyway I believe more in a
positive rather than a negative evidence. It's probably easier to skip an info rather than add an additional false statement.
1840 and 1844 sqns Were part of Indomitable air group, but the ship was in refitting IIRC.
AFAIK Indefatigable's Firefly squadron was no. 1772. 1770 operated from the carrier from mid 44 until june 45.


RG_lunatic,
AFAIK Australia never got a single Corsair, RNZAF did, but only about 370 F4U-1/1D in 1944 and about 60 FG-1D in 1945. Usually they followd

the same RAF/FAA desigination (but with some exceptions. Hudson MkI were different between RAF and RAAF). I'm also quite sure that the

F4U-4B were built for UK, but I can't explain were did they go. ???????????

About folding wing, I found the web page I had on my HDD:
The Goodyear variant of the F4U-1 was designated the "FG-1" and featured fixed rather than folding wings; it was intended to fly off land

bases, not carriers. Initial flight of the first Goodyear FG-1 was on 25 February 1943, with deliveries beginning in April.
The Brewster version was the "F3A-1", and was essentially identical to the F4U-1.
Initial flight of the first Brewster F3A-1 was on 26 April 1943, with deliveries beginning in July and ended in july 1944.
The Goodyear "FG-1A" like the FG-1 lacked wing fold.

My comment: Anyway the FG-1D quite surely had the folding wing.

Your photo seems to show a later Firefly Mk4 or Mk5. Judging from wingtips and radomes under each wing, it doesn't seem a MkI.
It's possible that The WW2 MkI had a different wing folding. The Mk4/5 had wing leading edge air intakes, instead of an under nose air

intake. The Mk5 had a powered folding wing.

Could you please do me a favor and learn to use the {quote} {/quote} tags (using square instead of curly brackets)? By hitting the "quote"

button in the upper left when replying, you will get the whole thing in a quote, with nested quotes laid out. All you have to do to break

the big quote into smaller sections is put {/quote} at the end of the section you want to reply to, add your reply, and then put

{quote="whoever"} at the start of the continuation of the quoted text. This makes things much easier to follow, espeically if there are

more than two parties engaging in the disucssion. If you need any help with this just PM me.

You are right. Bad habit. It's because I usually write the post offline and then I copy and paste when I connect.

Max

 

[maxs75]

I've checked, it seems that Firefly had the same folding wing mechanism in all variants. Possibly only Mk5 was powered.

Rich and Lunatic, is everything fine?

Max

 

[Rafe35]

As far as I know the F4U-1c's were only used by the VMF's - the first squadrons being deployed to Okinawa via the USS Breton and Sitko Bay (CVL's).

The VMF-311 "Hell Bells" used Vought F4U-1C Corsair before US capture Iwo Jima and they started ground support missions on Okinawa in July 1945 and for VBF-85, they also use F4U-1C for Air to Air combat, but the bad news that their 20mm cannon guns freeze at over 10,000 Feet and they were ordered to fly at 5,000 feet while F4U-1D Corsair fly at 10,000+ Feet.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

As far as I know the F4U-1c's were only used by the VMF's - the first squadrons being deployed to Okinawa via the USS Breton and Sitko Bay (CVL's).

The VMF-311 "Hell Bells" used Vought F4U-1C Corsair before US capture Iwo Jima and they started ground support missions on Okinawa in July 1945 and for VBF-85, they also use F4U-1C for Air to Air combat, but the bad news that their 20mm cannon guns freeze at over 10,000 Feet and they were ordered to fly at 5,000 feet while F4U-1D Corsair fly at 10,000+ Feet.

Gun "freezing" altitudes depends on ambient air temperature. The lapse rate for temp. is 5 degrees F per 1000 feet above sea level. For example, if we have a warm day in the Pacific were the ambient air temp. is 85F at sea level, at 10,000 feet the outside air temp would be 35F, cold but above freezing.

I believe 10,000 feet was used as a rule of thumb, if you do the math you'll figure out the freezing levels at altitude.

 

[Rafe35]

Here's what Lt. Joe D Robbins of VF-85 say:

"Out of the four planes in my division, none of the guns would fire (20mms). At that time we were the only Navy unit that had the 20mm guns. That afternoon they were tested at high altitude and it was found that they froze and would not fire at about 15,000 ft. We checked with Washington and learned that the flights that were to test them at high altitude had been cancelled! From then on we were restricted to 12,000 ft until we got the gun heaters. We still flew CAPs and target strikes below this altitude. VBF-85 (.50 cals) flew the higher CAPs."

The Blue Devils by Mark Styling and Barrett Tillman (Osprey Books)

That turn out that I made a mistake about F4U-1C (guns), Altitude (15,000 ft, not 10,000 ft), and units (VF-85, not VBF-85) from my 1st post and I apologize for errors.

 

[lesofprimus]

If ur using an Osprey Book as reference material, I can understand about u making a mistake, or 2...... Or 5 or 6.....

 

[Rafe35]

I actually make a lot mistakes before....

I like to read Osprey WWII books, but then again I rather read other books like Stackpole Military History Series, Combat Legend, Jane's Aircraft, etc etc.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh boy Osprey book again!

 

[airamerica]

I would like to know the name of the shotgun shell starter. In the earlier film, "Flight of the Phoenix" I believe it was referred to as a "Kolling" starter. It is not mentioned in the later film. I believe the engine employed in the C-119 was the PRATT WHITNEY R-4360 "WASP MAJOR." I also believe unless adapted to this particular engine, (perhaps for the desert service depicted in the films) it was never used with the R-4360.

To answer obvious questions about my handle, no, I never did fly for Air America, my wife divorced me over flying and I retrieved her by quitting flying and we were remarried a year later. This would have happened in 1966 when I was about to apply but with Asian service, I was encouraged not to by her then. Alas, I lost her to cancer in 1977. I did train some pilots who later did find their way to this portal, I understand.

Gentlemen, I thank you.