History Learner
Airman
- 20
- Jul 24, 2025
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There's a tendency among armchair historians, thankfully in decline to posit that the Japanese can't come up with their own ideas. The notion that the A6M had to be a copy of a western design comes to mind. Postwar this thinking applied to Japanese made consumer products and vehicles. Anyway, the IJN's Kido Butai had the best naval strike and fighter aircraft afloat operating from a half dozen fast fleet carriers. If the US decided to move its Pacific Fleet to Pearl Harbor and maintain it at half readiness in full view of Japanese intel ops, I am rather sure that Yamamoto or someone else in the IJN will independently arrive at the notion that we could and should use our carriers to conduct a first strike (including sorting out low depth torpedoes), per history.
Worse, the 47/32 and 47/40 actually had 630 m/s and 755 m/s respectively (last line). This means the 47/32 was even weaker than the French SA35 and the 47/40 was in the ballpark of the Soviet 45mm, even though the 45 was used in turrets of similar size while the SA35 was specifically designed for use in small 1-man turrets (in fact, originally a turret that was even smaller than the ones the gun was actually used in), so had an excuse to be relatively low velocity. As we know, the 47/40 ended up fitting just fine in the M13 turrets.Been watching some you-tube videos on Italian armor and while I have learned a little bit there is still a lot of nonsense being put out.
I am a gun guy so it really gets me when most of the videos claim the Italian (Austrian) 47mm was good gun or at least as good as anything else in late 1940.
It wasn't. And the problem was that the Germans, British, Soviets and Americans were already working on the replacements for their 1940 guns while it would take the Italians 1 1/2 to years to come up with their replacement.
gun...................................................MV.....................AP shell weight....................HE shell weight/mv
Italian 47/32...............................670ms.......................1.5kg...........................................2.37kg/250ms (?)
German short 50......................756ms.......................2.07kg...........................................--..--
British 2pdr.................................792ms.......................1.08kg...........................................NA
American 37mm......................884ms........................0.87kg...........................................0.73kg/792ms
Soviet 47mm.............................760ms.......................1.43kg..........................................unkown
French 47mm tank gun.........670ms.......................1.63kg..........................................1.41kg/-----
The Italian gun was almost 2 years behind, granted the British had screwed up 3 different ways but that does not move the Italians to near the top of the list. Installing a gun in the fall of 1940 that is inferior to the gun that they fought in 1937 in Spain in a very similar tank (smaller) is not a good look.
The Italian 47/40 is skimmed over as a slightly long gun. Now given that it showed up so late and in so few production tanks it wasn't of much importance historically. But it is the gun the Italians should have been using in in 1940 or early 1941. The increase in MV to 820/830ms put it about even with the German long 50mm although the lighter projectile did hurt it.
Radios and/or lack of radios is often not mentioned.
Excuses are often made about the small size needed for Italian operations in the Mountains against Austria(?) or France but then they sometimes claim that the British were already designing for the desert? Crusader was designed in the summer of 1939. The earlier Cruisers were designed in 1936/37. British were designing in general, not for the desert. British were also just as behind as anybody else when it comes to needing sand filters or wear caused in track systems.
YouTube is a total crapshoot in regards to accuracy of information. Sometimes you'll get wonderfully accurate and new information, but many more times you'll get blatantly false or outright wrong information - on rare occasions you might even find those false sources being explicitly fabricated in order to push a narrative, prerogative or some other kind of agenda.-snip-
Something sure seems to be off here. Getting even 3 times the diameter of the shell for penetration during WW II was just about unheard of. Things got a lot better right after the war.YouTube is a total crapshoot in regards to accuracy of information. Sometimes you'll get wonderfully accurate and new information, but many more times you'll get blatantly false or outright wrong information - on rare occasions you might even find those false sources being explicitly fabricated in order to push a narrative, prerogative or some other kind of agenda.
But in regards to Italy, AFAIK the EP and EPS shells were generally relegated to guns in the 65 mm range and up, anything lower was found to be inadequate. The zenith of which was the EP shell designed for the 90/42 (shortened 90/53, similar ballistics the KwK 36 88mm gun on the Tiger) on the P.43Bis - which IIRC clocked in at about 240 mm of penetration and ~750 m/s(?) Take the claims with a healthy grain of salt though.
Again, take the measurements with a grain of salt. The muzzle velocity seemed off to me too - I was thinking more in the 400~500 range based off of the Swedish Sav m/43's 105 mm gun, which had a HEAT shell also capable of 240mm penetration but flew at the low ~400 m/s range.Something sure seems to be off here. Getting even 3 times the diameter of the shell for penetration during WW II was just about unheard of. Things got a lot better right after the war.
High speed projectiles that are spin stabilized was problem. The faster the shell spins the wider the jet it forms and the less penetration. Then there are fuse problems, Shaped charges work well with a certain amount of stand off. The less stand off the less penetration but fast projectiles crush the nose cone and reduce penetration as the fuse functions. Fuses also got better during the 50s. Americans went to fin stabilized HEAT rounds in the 90mm guns in the M47 tanks. I imagine they could be fired out of the older 90mm guns ? but the sights may not having aiming marks?
In any case one source says that the M348 HEAT round was developed (or standardized ?) in 1951 and and was good for about 280-290mm of penetration.
View attachment 842247
The later (1953 ?) M431 ammo was good for 340mm of penetration
View attachment 842248
Note that both of these are fin stabilized to get rid of the spin problem and nose probe on the later one to try to get good stand off.
I have no idea of what the Italians were doing in 1943/44 but something does not seem right.
Please note that a 'static' shot (round is placed next to target and detonated ) is going to give much better penetration than a live shot (projectile is spinning as it hits) if the projectile is spin stabilized.
The Italian Army developed a new and revolutionary doctrine of combined arms warfare in 1938 based on the lessons learned from their experiences of the 1930s. The success from the use of Italian combined arm teams in Spain and in Ethiopia proved the concept of motorized forces and the natural follow-on of mechanization for the Italian Army. This doctrine was called the War of Rapid Decision. With this doctrine the Italian Army had developed a new and dynamic operational art of war. The Italian military in Libya had all the necessary elements to be successful utilizing this new doctrine. In addition it had a commander that already successfully used and demonstrated an applied motorized doctrine in the Italo-Ethiopian war where it proved victorious to him. Marshal Graziani didn't utilize this new doctrine.
Combined with the available armor and motorized artillery forces, he would have had a potential mechanized force to invade Egypt with in August of 1940. The only realistic motorized formation that could have been formed is with the Comando Carri Armati della Libia, possibly three or four artillery Regiments, and one motorized infantry division.
Like E Elan Vital said earlier, Italy had more powerful 47 mm gun designs as early as 1934 in the 47/46 and 47/48 - ditching the 47/32 for those would have been the smarter play in the long run with the possibility of the 47/52 later on if they still need a low-to-medium calibre gun for light tanks and/or armoured cars.It seems to me that one of the best things the Italian army could have done in 1938-39 was to abandon the Cannone da 47/32 as a towed AT gun and as a tank gun and build/buy a more powerful 47mm gun. The 47/32 was nice mountain gun and/or infantry support gun, it was a crap AT gun which forced the forward deployment of 65mm and 75mm infantry guns/howitzers as ersatz AT guns of dubious efficiency. They scored some kills but perhaps a better weapon would have done better at lower cost (fewer crewmen killed).
The adoption of truck mounted guns in 1938/39 as cheap SP guns would also have paid benefits. I am not sure if the Italians even built more than a 100 Autocannone even during 1941-43 (many of the total were SP 20mm AA guns) so this is not a huge ask.
Also more radios sooner
The problem with using infantry guns/howitzers as AT guns is simple ballistics. If you can increase the MV gun from 630m/s to 780m/s you can increase the effective range by about 150meters. Effective range being the distance you can expect a 1st round hit a good percentage of the time. This is governed by the time of flight and the fact that gravity is pulling the round/s downward at an increasing velocity with longer time. 9.8 meters per second squared so that in the first second of flight the shell drops 4.9 meters. In the second 2 second of flight the shell drops about 14.6 meters (in addition to first 4.9 meters) and in the 3rd second it drops 24.4 meters (in addition to the 19.5 meters of the first 2 seconds) for a total drop of 43.9 meters.
This is why using infantry/mountain guns at 1000 meters with MV of 350m/s shells doesn't work well. You have to aim over 40 meters over the top of the tank. You can kill the enemy tank with the 65-75mm howitzer but you have to let it get suicidality close (next tank is well within MG range of the defending gun/s) like 300 meters.
The increase penetration of the higher velocity gun is bonusover the 47/32.
Italians had run into the Soviet 45m guns in Spain. The Czechs were making a very nice 47mm gun. The Japanese started making a 47mm gun after their wars with the Soviets (a bit late for Italy) and the French were building a 47mm AT gun but they over did it a bit. Just under 1100kg for 47mm gun was not a good return on investment but the light Italian 47/32 was also not a good return on investment. It wouldn't do the job it needed to do.
The Italians needed to keep their scarce artillery further to the rear doing actual artillery jobs, not playing at being AT guns.
I learned recently that a big but relatively unknown reason behind the Ba.88s failure was actually because of the ineficiency of Bredas industrial capacity as an aircraft manufacturer (Perhaps the Italian Brewster?). The airframe was designed in a way that was waaaay to heavy. Had the design been more efficient, then the Ba.88 would've at least been a workable design. It still would've been a little underpowered, but moreso like an Italian Hs.129 and less like a late-1800s failed pioneer design.
- Italy invests more heavily into welding technologies, supplanting the riveting used to make a majority of their tanks.
I think the Ba.88 would've been dead on arrival regardless for the simple fact that it was never going to work as a military aircraft. The design was fundamentally flawed from the start due to its concentric fuselage, and no amount of perceived efficiency gains could offset that.I learned recently that a big but relatively unknown reason behind the Ba.88s failure was actually because of the ineficiency of Bredas industrial capacity as an aircraft manufacturer (Perhaps the Italian Brewster?). The airframe was designed in a way that was waaaay to heavy. Had the design been more efficient, then the Ba.88 would've at least been a workable design. It still would've been a little underpowered, but moreso like an Italian Hs.129 and less like a late-1800s failed pioneer design.
This is part of what I mentioned with the airframe design. That being said, I do agree that a design like the CR.25 would've been way better.I think the Ba.88 would've been dead on arrival regardless for the simple fact that it was never going to work as a military aircraft. The design was fundamentally flawed from the start due to its concentric fuselage, and no amount of perceived efficiency gains could offset that.
If you want my opinion, the Ba.88 should've been tossed in the trash and the CR.25 should have been the one the RA should have focused on instead - that one actually had room to grow.
A neat looking aircraft.Another idea would be to get the SM.88 to be a domestic aircraft instead of an export one:
Not any more photos exist as I'm aware, and the only in person photos seem to be from this particular day:A neat looking aircraft.
A bit of skepticism - is there a photo of a real aircraft anywhere? My google-fu is weak today.
I believe this a version ( model?) of the SM.86 and not the SM.88. The SM.86 was a development of the SM.85.Not any more photos exist as I'm aware, and the only in person photos seem to be from this particular day:
View attachment 847453
If it helps, here is a thread from secretprojects.co.uk that features discussions of the aircraft:
Savoia-Marchetti SM 88
Is anyone got the photos or drawings of the SM88.I look in Google already but It doesn't have.www.secretprojects.co.uk
While looking, I appear to have found a photo of another engine variation:
View attachment 847454
A timely post. Rex's Hanger just release a video on the "Flying Banana".I believe this a version ( model?) of the SM.86 and not the SM.88. The SM.86 was a development of the SM.85.
View attachment 848907
Small wing and two 460hp 9 cylinder radials.
There were two SM.86 aircraft, one with a pointer nose and a pair of 600 hp Walter Sagitta inverted V-12 engines
and a second one with 540 hp Isotta Fraschini Gamma inverted V-12 engines.
The 2nd one may have had twin tails and more revisions to the cockpit/canopy.
These were all small aircraft with a single fuselage.
The SM.88 was somewhat larger and used two booms and a center fuselage (a bit bigger than a P-38).
A stepping stone to the SM.91
View attachment 848908
Problem with all of them is the lack of suitable engine produced in Italy and the lack of German supplied engines.