Focke Wulf FW 190-D9 "the best fighter of Germany"?

[pbehn]

What so disrespectful about his post?

Unless taken out of context, nothing he said was meant in disrespect.

I didnt like the language "crusty old bastard" directed at one of the worlds great aviators, and speculating about ho long a 95 year old will be with us is impolite to say the least.

Maybe a question of two nations divided by a common language, there is no way I would talk about ANY 95 year old in those terms let alone one of historys greats.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I didnt like the language "crusty old bastard" directed at one of the worlds great aviators, and speculating about ho long a 95 year old will be with us is impolite to say the least.

Maybe a question of two nations divided by a common language, there is no way I would talk about ANY 95 year old in those terms let alone one of historys greats.

Then you obviously took it out of context. Calling an old military veteran a "crusty old bastard" is never meant in disrespect.

In fact as an example I am a veteran myself, and me and my fellow brothers from my unit routinely refer to the older members of our old unit "you old bastard".

There is a difference between saying "the crusty old bastard" and "the fucking bastard."

The latter would be a term of disrespect. The former would not.

Again, unless taken out of context, there was nothing disrespectful about it. It was nothing more than a phrase/ figure of speech. It often is used as a sign of respect.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And as for speculating how long he is going to live?

He is 95 years old and in possible failing health.

Saying you don't expect him to be with us much longer is stating a fact, not disrespecting him.

Am I disrespecting my 97 year old Grandmother by stating the obvious fact that she will not be with us much longer?

I think some of you need to stop being so sensitive and PC over something that was not really that big of a deal.

 

[drgondog]

I know him, have mixed opinions about him - but no mixed opinions regarding his stature in the aerospace biz.

He is a.) a "crusty SOB" and b.) cranky of mixed moods, and c.) one of the greatest pilots over nearly 70 years with a distinguished published (and unpublished) war records. Bud Anderson has the same opinion.

 

[Greyman]

I don't have a reference handy, but if I recall correctly, the Dora was given very high praise from Chuck Yeager.

Eric Brown also said of the D-9; "This was, in my opinion, the finest piston-engined fighter to enter Luftwaffe service."

He rated it the second-best piston-engined fighter of the entire war, just behind the Spitfire XIV and just head of the P-51D.

 

[GrauGeist]

Then you obviously took it out of context. Calling an old military veteran a "crusty old bastard" is never meant in disrespect.

In fact as an example I am a veteran myself, and me and my fellow brothers from my unit routinely refer to the older members of our old unit "you old bastard".

There is a difference between saying "the crusty old bastard" and "the fucking bastard."

The latter would be a term of disrespect. The former would not.

Again, unless taken out of context, there was nothing disrespectful about it. It was nothing more than a phrase/ figure of speech. It often is used as a sign of respect.

Shoulda been around my household when I was a kid...there was always a fine blend of combat vets who were: career Navy Chiefs, Army senior Sergeants, USMC senior sergeants, USAF career senior Sergeants and associated riff-raff that all sported numerous stripes. This didn't include the renegade family members who had the nerve to be of the commissioned sort. Add to that mix, the group of friends who were all combat vets from all branches.

Get them all in a room and the insults, name calling and general mayhem always was a result. (Squidlegs, Seagoing bellhop, Shallowater sailor and such were the mildest of the names being tossed back and forth)

The only one that was immune from that, was Uncle Bill who was a USN Captain, and when he'd enter the room, the guys would all stand up, and he roll his eyes and say "for the love of God, sit the eff down" which was usually answered with such things as "fine, ya' old bastard...I was going to get a beer anyway..."

 

[alex33]

Eric Brown also said of the D-9; "This was, in my opinion, the finest piston-engined fighter to enter Luftwaffe service."

He rated it the second-best piston-engined fighter of the entire war, just behind the Spitfire XIV and just head of the P-51D.

I coud swear i read on this forum that he never actually flew a d-9 but another d variant. But that could also mean that that guy was mistaken.

 

[pbehn]

Then you obviously took it out of context. Calling an old military veteran a "crusty old bastard" is never meant in disrespect.

In fact as an example I am a veteran myself, and me and my fellow brothers from my unit routinely refer to the older members of our old unit "you old bastard".

There is a difference between saying "the crusty old bastard" and "the fucking bastard."

The latter would be a term of disrespect. The former would not.

Again, unless taken out of context, there was nothing disrespectful about it. It was nothing more than a phrase/ figure of speech. It often is used as a sign of respect.

I didnt realise that Soulezoo served with Jeager. As you say, old veterans can address each other with terms that seem like complete disrespect from those outside the group.

 

[alex33]

Ha finally found that quote that states that the d9 wasnt flown by brown.

It was discovered in the 60s iirc that the Fw-190D-9 that Brown evaluated, which formed the entire basis of all western appreciation on the combat performance of Doras, wasn't a D-9 at all but a D-12 with a completely different engine fitment. It was much rarer, hand assembled and reflected neither the build quality nor the performance and character of most Doras that fought. For a start the D-12 was fitted with an extremely complicated multiple stage and automatically geared blower system with a throttle altitude boost and an emergency overboost facility, all weather pilot equipment (radio navigation and other new technologies), it was a very well equipped and futuristic fighter, very much like the sort of specification you'd expect from a piston fighter-bomber in Korea era, like an F4U-4 or a Seafury.

An American postwar evaluation on a rebuild true D-9 at Wright Patterson gave completely different results to Brown's tests of course, nowhere near the performance superiority he found. They characterised it as a hotrod built in a backyard shed and were amazed it could keep pace with a Mustang without falling apart, it was very rough to fly. Brown's was much faster at sea level and had far better altitude performance plus it was just an all round nicer pilots plane. What really doesn't help is the fact FW company documentation gives almost exclusively calculated figures so common perceptions are completely misled, you need to speak with dedicated specialists in the specific field and aircraft type, and the tendency to take pilots at their word like Brown is high, but there is no reason to assume his accounts taken with more authority than wartime pilot accounts, which officially had an error margin.

And here is the report that i mentioned that straight up says that the d-9 is worse than the A series.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/wright-field-fw190d-9.pdf

Thats what i dont really get why it is said that it was so good. Could it be that this report is wrong? Or is that true. I really dont understand. Especially cause i love the d-9 =(

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I didnt realise that Soulezoo served with Jeager. As you say, old veterans can address each other with terms that seem like complete disrespect from those outside the group.

It was just an example.

In English, refferring to someone as a "crusty old bastard" is a refference to being old and typically is not meant with disrespect.

You are taking it out of context.

 

[grampi]

What is so disrespectful about his post?

Unless taken out of context, nothing he said was meant in disrespect.

Calling someone a "crusty old bastard" is not respectful...

 

[BiffF15]

I didnt realise that Soulezoo served with Jeager. As you say, old veterans can address each other with terms that seem like complete disrespect from those outside the group.

They don't have to be old to do that! In every squadron I was ever in if another pilot was "nice" by todays standards I was very cautious around them. Sarcasm is a great tool to keep everyone on their toes...

Cheers,
Biff

 

[BiffF15]

The D9 was an excellent fighter, the D13 would have been better, the Ta 152 was better than both for air to air combat.

The phrase "better' begs the question "better based on what criteria"?

Confirm the D-13 was basically the pinnacle of the "short" wing versions, and the Ta-152H as the same of the "long" wing versions?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Shortround6]

They don't have to be old to do that! In every squadron I was ever in if another pilot was "nice" by todays standards I was very cautious around them. Sarcasm is a great tool to keep everyone on their toes...

Cheers,
Biff

A friend of mine's father was a F4U pilot in VMF-124 at the end of the war. They went as a family to see "Top Gun" when it came out. When my friends wife asked how it liked it at the end, he replied "The locker room scenes seemed pretty realistic".

 

[soulezoo]

It was just an example.

In English, refferring to someone as a "crusty old bastard" is a refference to being old and typically is not meant with disrespect.

You are taking it out of context.

Thank you Adler.. I seem to have missed the kerfuffle that I started unintentionally.

You summed up perfectly my "context".

To be clear, I mean no disrespect to Gen. Yeager at all. I have the utmost of respect for him.

No, I didn't serve with him, but he lives in my area (Grass Valley California), very close in fact. 25 years ago I'd run into him every once in awhile at the BX or dispensary at Beale AFB. While I can't say we are "close friends" we are familiar. Our best discussions centered on hunting and a shared love of Weatherby rifles.. not so much on aviation. (My father having served in USAAF in WW II was at least a point of something in common)

In terms of my saying "crusty old bastard" this is a term of endearment for me and I said it as I thought it (not thinking folks here would not get the reference), and I have said this to his face before-- right after one of his rants. He stopped, thought about what I just said and then just grinned. Would you rather me be more direct and say "mean old potty mouthed SOB?" Fact is, he is a grumpy old man at this point and his faculties are leaving him. I mention "he won't be around much longer" less because his age makes it so, but rather as a statement of fact as I have watched him decline a lot since I saw him last. I said it more in terms of letting folks of this forum know about the situation of one of our most esteemed. One can provide some reverence while he is still with us rather than reading he just passed and then think about what he's done.

So I apologize to those who have taken issue with my statement. I ask that you understand this is a giant of a man in our world that I just happen to be more familiar with personally than most here and it reflected in my post. I am more than certain that anyone here that knows Mr. Yeager better than I can more than vouch for the context I used and that it reflects appropriately.

 

[stona]

Blimey! Anyone remember the old Fortune's song..."Storm in a teacup"

 

[Kryten]

Anyone who has been in the armed forces knows the banter is part of the culture especially between rival services and units, the way ex servicemen talk to each other is often interpreted as hostility by civvies, a lot of my friends are also ex servicemen and it's just the norm to greet them with an insult, if your so hypersensitive you get upset over that then your not going to cope with the realities of military life!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Calling someone a "crusty old bastard" is not respectful...

And you are being overly sensative and taking it out of context...

 

[alex33]

Ok guys could we maybe stop with this ot stuff? My question still stands

 

[Greyman]

Ha finally found that quote that states that the d9 wasnt flown by brown.

And here is the report that i mentioned that straight up says that the d-9 is worse than the A series.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/wright-field-fw190d-9.pdf

Thats what i dont really get why it is said that it was so good. Could it be that this report is wrong? Or is that true. I really dont understand. Especially cause i love the d-9 =(

Interesting about the different versions. I wonder if the D-9 tested at Wright could be considered representative of what was generally found in service. It would be great to hear German opinions.