fw 190 A-8 black 5 of III/JG54 help please

[rochie]

ok guys some guidance needed from the experten out there please !

i've just purchased an fw 190 A-8 from academy, after reading the instruction sheet i'm slightly confused !!!!!

firstly
the paint guide says an rlm 70/71/76 cammo scheme is this correct ?

second
the guide also says cowl ring and lower surface wing outer panels painted orange but the completed model on the box is clearly painted yellow in these area's so which is correct ?

and lastly
should the spinner be black with white swirl or white with black swirl as the box and instructions differ again ?

any help will be greatly appreciated guys as would any pics/profiles if they exist

ive included a pic of the paint/decal guide if that helps

thanks in advance
karl

 

[lesofprimus]

The only thing I can be sure of is that the cowl ring and panels are not orange...

Heres a shot of an IL2 skin... FW 190 A8: Black 5, Unit: 8./JG54

I would not follow the provided instructions...

 

[lesofprimus]

Heres Dortenmanns IL2 crate, the one that I did when I completed my Hasegawa kit, followed by a pic of mine...

 

[Erich]

Les is pretty much spot on the mark with both skins, the kit instructions are not a good choice to follow and you were wise to post here........... the A-8s of the this gruppe flowed into III. gruppe for the Normandie campaign right up into September when they first received the Dora 9 and the first gruppe to do so.

 

[Airframes]

Hi Karl. Les's pics are more on the ball. The colours should be 74/75/76. The cowl ring was Yellow 04, and the bottom cowl panel was not, apparently, yellow. I'll post a pic of my Hasegawa 1/32nd model of this aircraft, so that you can compare, following this post.
Terry.

 

[lesofprimus]

Im waiting Terry.....

 

[Airframes]

Here you go Karl (and Les!). This info was taken from a profile published, along with an article, in 'Scale Models' magazine, 1978 (!), and the profile was, supposedly, the most accurate ever drawn at the time, executed by a very respected artist, whose name escapes me! The details were taken from (then) recently discovered information, both from archives, and personnel from JG54, so it should (hopefully) be as accurate as claimed. The aircraft is depicted, IIRC, in approx August 1944.
Bear in mind this model was built 30 years ago (God, I'm getting old!), and is in need of just a little attention in the repair department, and a damn good clean!
Terry.

 

[Erich]

nice model but do not think correct for the time . should have a very light grey nose ring, not yellow, the spinner should be black with white spiralschnauze.

this as a result of photos depicting A-8's from June till September 44. the bright yellow nose ring would of been a perfect target for Allied fighters.

As you said Terry it has been years ago

 

[Airframes]

Thanks Erich. I actually thought that about the yellow nose ring at the time, as I hadn't actually seen such an 'adornment'. One of the (monochrome) photos with the article mentioned, showed what the artist had deduced was a yellow ring, judged by tonal values. If I still had the article, I could check it on a colour comparitor. I do recall though, that the photo in question did show what certainly appeared to be the spinner spiral as black on white. Anyway, thanks very much again as, coincidentally, I have this model on my list as a 'repair and correct' item, and can now update and correct as required! If you happen to have a pic of one of this unit's aircraft at the time, I would be most grateful.
Thanks again,
Terry.

 

[lesofprimus]

Very nice lookin crate Terry, and as Erich pointed out, that yellow is incorrect, let alone being ORANGE!!!!

Nice fu*kin direction sheet Karl...

 

[Wurger]

There are my three cents to the interesting topic.According to a pic of the Black 5 I have found , it seems that the spinner should be white with a thin black spiralschnauze.As far as the nose ring is concerned, it looks like yellow painted but not light grey.Unfortunately the Fw190 nose is not the pic foreground so it isn't easy to state it clearly.But It looks to me as yellow.

And of course the main landnig legs had its covering when the Terry's model lost it anyhow. In addition, the camo patterns seems to be dark because the blue band on the fuselage is almost unvisible.

 

[Airframes]

That sounds very like the photo that was in the magazine article, Wojtek. It might not appear so in the pics of my (old!) model, but the camouflage and mottle is heavier than 'usual', as per the 'dark' appearnce in the above mentioned photo and the profile. So, perhaps the nose ring was yellow, despite what we all think should be the more accurate colour for the period? I admit that, at the time I built my example, the ring did look to be a different tone in the photo, which supported the artist's interpretation of yellow. I also (vaguely) recall mention of the yellow in the text of the article, and something about it PREVIOUSLY being thought to be the light grey. I wish I still had the magazine, as I could possibly make a decision, based on training and experience gained since the time!
I'm happy to say that I have the undercarriage doors, and the starboard engine cowling, the latter being cut out and detailed to be posed in the open position. These will be replaced when the model goes into 'the hangar' for 'deep servicing' and update!

 

[Erich]

scan and post the pic please if available to do so so we can further comment.

One thing though that has sturck me is in III./Jg 54 during the time in Normandie some very well known big boy aces were in this gruppe taking on RAF and US fighters, III./JG 54 was the most successful JG gruppe in the Normandie campaign with over 100 kills. A point made with the cowling ring painted yellow and spinner "if" white with black stripe would and may have indicated a Staffleführer or someone of notierity that may have worn the markings as ID for the less experienced to join up with him. Interesting too that the black 10 worn by Nowotny on his A-8 the letter was very small and no distinquishing markings on the fuselage or tail to make him stand out to get popped. Prop was black with white stripe.

 

[Wurger]

The difference in painting among German WW2 planes makes it really difficult to say.In some pics it is clearly visible the nose ring was painted with yellow colour, in other shots it is not noticable.It is true that most of Fw190 in that period had their rings painted with camo colours but the borderline between the RLM76 and RLM74 or 75 is rather visible, especiallly if the line was going along the middle of the engine cowling.So Erich can be right saying that it could have been light grey.

 

[Wurger]

Our posts have crisse-crossed.Here is the pic.Source unknown.
I found a profile as well.But this time the blue band was omitted and the spinner is of black with white spiral so it is a bit incorrect.

 

[Erich]

two things, the cowling is not yellow as it matches per see the under fuselage colour of RLM 76 blue-grey and the spinner as I thought is black with a white spiral - look how wide the white stripe is. the Reichsband of blue is in place plainly seen

is there another front on photo ? am wondering if this is part of the gruppenstab.

 

[Airframes]

Hmm! The pic and profile are different to the ones that were in the 1978 magazine, but the angle in the pic is similar. However, the magazine pic was taken from the port side, at a similar three-quarter rear angle, but outdoors. In Wojtek's pic, I would say that the spiral is black on white. Allowing for the lighting inside the hangar, and comparing with the spinner and the surrounding camouflage colours on the nose and cowling, I would say that, in Wojtek's picture, the nose ring could very well be yellow. However, it is also possible that it is 'newer' light grey, even though the tone suggests a different colour. Erich, your mention of the Stab, and other 'experten' rings bells from the mentioned article. Unfortunately, I no longer have a record of all of the details appertaining to the particular aircraft, which is a pity, because I seem to recall that the name of the pilot was given. After 30 years though, I can't remember enough of those details to provide evidence from which a conclusion can be reached; very frustrating!
But, going back to rochies' original query, if the nose ring was painted in camouflage colour on his model, I would suggest that this would be acceptable as far as authenticity goes. Incidentally, the WkNr shown on my model is ?746. I'm afraid this is now very feint, and the first digit, if there was one, is no longer visible. Again, after 30 years, I can't remember if this was the actual number!

 

[Wurger]

two things, the cowling is not yellow as it matches per see the under fuselage colour of RLM 76 blue-grey and the spinner as I thought is black with a white spiral - look how wide the white stripe is. the Reichsband of blue is in place plainly seen

is there another front on photo ? am wondering if this is part of the gruppenstab.

Concerning the spinner painting, If we assume that the white spiral was wide I can agree with you Erich.But in all pics with Fw190As I have seen a such wide spiral occured very rarely.Unless it occupied most of the front part of the spinner.I have uploaded magnified part of the pic with the nose and other shot with a spinner with a black spiral to compare.I'm still not sure of the spinner was black with the white spiral.But it is possible.

Concerning the engine cowling I'm sure it wasn't yellow but it was RLM76 and in addition quite light.But only two first rings of it seem to be of different colour.I think it could have been yellow painted like in the profile.

Unfortunately I found the pic only.That's a pity I wouldn't find another front in others.Maybe someone else can.

 

[Airframes]

For a simple question from rochie, this is getting very interesting!
Great stuff!
Spinner first; in the enlargement, it is apparent that the spiral is a dark colour on a light background, which I will assume is a thinner black spiral on a white spinner or, a very wide white spiral on a black spinner! The second photo more or less matches the spinner shown in the profile and photo I based my model on; that is, black spiral on a white spinner. It is apparent that, in this picture, the cowling ring is not yellow, but a continuation of the camouflage colours.
That 'yellow' colour; again, in the enlargement. I have studied this very carefully, and can not make a definite statement, but! It is definite that the actual cowling is not yellow, and I assume it is 76. However, the cowling ring, although it might very well be 76, does appear to have a slight tonal difference. If compared with the 76 immediately behind it, and in particular to that area at the front of the 'blister', there is a small, but noticeable difference in the tone. This can be seen more easily if you look at the colour tone immediately behind the darker line of the ring joint, and the tone immediately in front of the joint. If I was able to study the original print, even if it was a half-tone reproduction from a book, using a 'dot-glass' I think I could provide a better assessment, as I would be able to see the differences in either the grain (actual photo) or the percentage dot size (half-tone).
Something else that needs to be taken into account regarding the photograph in question; it is just possible that the original negative was a colour negative, from which a monochrome print was produced, or, a colour reversal image (transparency), from which an interneg was produced, and then a monchrome print made. Although this is probably unlikely, it is not improbable (!). If this is/was the case, it would account for the 'darker' overall tonal values, and this would have a fairly strong bearing on the perceived colours.
Whatever the original source was, it appears that there is a differnce in tone between the cowling ring and the actual cowling. It is not possible, however, to state definitely that the cowling ring is yellow, although personally I think it is, as it could just be a slight difference in the age, or shade, of the camouflage colour.
This is one of those situations, regarding colours, where the debate could continue indefinitely!
Let's hope that rochie can make some sense of this, and finish his model to his satisfaction! I would love to find out the true colour though!
Terry.

 

[Wurger]

Terry that is exactly what I thought.The same way of thinking.However we cannot exclude that Erich is right.
Concerning the pic I think the orginal pic was taken with B&W negative rather.