Fw-190

[Erich]

The SturmFw's, both R2's and R8's were made at Fieseler/Kassel werke's

the numbers were 680101 to 683340 although it appears that some of the 682designations were for the A-9/R2

the numbers i have do not give exacts for the R2 or R8 but are all put together,

Developed and sent from the factory in February of 1944 till January of 45 with a total of 1350 units divided up between the Sturmstaffel 1, JG 1 and JG 11, then the three Sturmgruppen of JG 3, 4 and 300. Also units in JG 301.

Now for the A-8 in general I have once heard some 6,000 units plus completed. anyone have the stats on that as I do not have all the werk nummerations by a long shot............

ok lets get totally confused now ....

The first so-called SturmFw's were in Sturmstaffel 1 and they were armored knights having four 2cm weapons and possibly cowling mg's but not always. These were A-6's with the designation R2 but the R2 was not always listed officially. Later in the winter of 44 some A-7's came into the staffel due to huge casualties. The introduction of the Mk 3cm 108 cannon in the A-7 led to the term A-7/MK but leter that was removed and the R2 designation was retained. The unit's machines were not always armored in the Sturmstaffel 1 as well as JG 1 and JG 11. The two latter units also had the predominance of A-8's as standard.
In June of 44 the Sturm Fw was given A-8/R2 some with mg's and some without; some without had the cowling fairings aerodynamically placed to restrict the bad flying characteristics of the ehavy bird. These were used in all three heavy units until November/December 1944 when the A-8R8 becmae the Standard Sturm Fw machine. This had all the heavy armor as well as mg's removed and teh aerodynamic farings on the engine cowling. there were no more field modifications, as these came straight from the factory, two 2cm inboard and two 3cm outboard. The true standard for the Sturmbocke.
During the fall of 1944 JG 301 also had SturmFw like machines, usually not armored although the aobve pic of white 21 says otherwise. The A-8/R2 had mg's or sometimes not but always the 2cm and 3cm weapons. The heavy units were also broken up amongst the Staffels of III. gruppe but again we find them in dribs and drabs in the other two gruppe's; the first and second. later IV. gruppe would arrive for a short spell but it operated the Bf 109G-10.
As the A-8 was being slwly fazed out the A-9 came into full on production with some having the heavy outboard 3m's. This was the A-9/R2 serving in JG 3, JG 300 and JG 301. 12 bladed fan and many the wooden prop for more power. Also the drop tank had changed in style and the Bubble top like canopy of the dora model was placed on the A-9 in many cases. From a distance though the A-8 and A-9 looked alike.

I have also heard the cheaply made Mk 108 3cm was in short supply along with the ammo. It was used also for the Bf 110G-4 Night fighter as well as SturmFw's and the Me 262 so yes many hands wanted the unit for their a/c . with the case of further acceptance of the Me 262 I beleive that they had priority of the weapon although new marks of Bf110G-4's were coming out with the Neptun FuG 217 radar and the forward armament was two 3cm weapons and two 2cm weapons in the lower nose.
SturmFw's were losing most of their armor and the outboard 3cm's being replaced by 2cm weapons although some armored knights stayed with JG 3. JG 3 and JG 4 staying on the Ost front from mid January till war's end while JG 300 stayed in the interior Reich flying the heavy Sturm fighter.....

I need Kaffe bitte ....... hope this all makes sense

Erich

 

[Anonymous]

Yes it makes sense, but it still doesn't answer the question; what proprotion of the A8's were A-8/R2's?

I used to be in contact with a guy writing a book on the FW. I'll need to try to get back in touch with him (it's been 2 years). He gave me the complete deployment info for JG1 up through the end of 1944, which are as follows: (I have specific delivery, loss, and strength info by month as well)

Type_____________Total
Fw 190A-2 ................86
Fw 190A-3 ................49
Fw 190A-4 ................151
Fw 190A-4/R1 ...........3
Fw 190A-5 ................66
Fw 190A-6 ................128
Fw 190A-7 ................185
Fw 190A-8 ................440
Fw 190A-9 ................14
Grand Total...............1122

This implies that either JG1 got the lion's share of the FW190A-8's or that there were in fact more A-8's produced than the 1334 generally reported. He claimed that while it was the desire of the units to have more 30mm armed planes, that in fact the numbers were rather small and most were armed with 4 x MG151/20's + 2 x MG131's (sometimes ommited).

Again, the A-6 variant with outboard guns removed was by far the best dogfighting version of the FW190A. Later versions became too heavy for effective dogfighting.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

Lune there were some 6700 Fw 190A-8's from the factories // amounts of 1350 were A-8/R2's and R8's.

My listing which I found is of the werke nummern and the factories. There are not specific dates except for the first and last machines delivered by month by those very nummern of 680 to the 683***.

 

[lesofprimus]

Again, the A-6 variant with outboard guns removed was by far the best dogfighting version of the FW190A. Later versions became too heavy for effective dogfighting.

That is definatly true.... But...If u removed the armor protection as well as the outboard cannon on the A-8, it also was quite the dogfighter...

 

[Erich]

Personally the A-9 without the outboard guns is probably equal to the A-6 and also with a more powerful engine. Again I mentioned it was a personal preference by some I. and II./JG 301 pilots and it spread to other units as well such as JG 4. When Reich defence units flew on the Ost front they of course were told to defend Berlin and the area at all costs. This meant besides looking for Soviet a/c to engage, the terrible wrok of ground attack with single bombs, so the outboard cannons were then removed. It became standard even when encountering the Yak and Mig and Lav. fighters to only have cowling mg's and inboard 2cm's.

 

[lesofprimus]

Yes I have read that before.. less weight = better flight performance.....

ANyone know how much those 2cm and 30mm weaps weighed, with ammo????

 

[Anonymous]

Lune there were some 6700 Fw 190A-8's from the factories // amounts of 1350 were A-8/R2's and R8's.

My listing which I found is of the werke nummern and the factories. There are not specific dates except for the first and last machines delivered by month by those very nummern of 680 to the 683***.

You cannot go just by the werknumber sequencings. It has been shown repeatedly that there were often significant gaps within a block.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[lesofprimus]

You cannot go just by the werknumber sequencings. It has been shown repeatedly that there were often significant gaps within a block.

I have heard this also.....

 

[Erich]

I also realize that, one mention of 682*** as some of the A-9/R2's in the above postings. But I have a listing of the werke nummern complete with the amounts in numbers. 1350 Sturmlike machines. this would include A-8 and A-9 sorry I cannot break that up any smaller, but it is confirmed from two German sources, one from German author Peter Rodeike in his fantastic Fw 190/Ta 152 book

 

[Anonymous]

I also realize that, one mention of 682*** as some of the A-9/R2's in the above postings. But I have a listing of the werke nummern complete with the amounts in numbers. 1350 Sturmlike machines. this would include A-8 and A-9 sorry I cannot break that up any smaller, but it is confirmed from two German sources, one from German author Peter Rodeike in his fantastic Fw 190/Ta 152 book

Typically each Block is only a few hundred planes. Typically, some block sections are skipped entirely. 1334 FW190A-8's of all types is the generally accepted number. While I agree there were probably more than this, I'd really like to see some kind of solid info about there having been 6700, which is a huge huge discrepancy.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

I'll see if the rest of the listing covers the breakdown. Wonder though of the 6700 plus is all the Fw 190A variants ? the list in my possession is a abad copy from Germany. I can attest in truth the nu bers for the sturm machines which I will list on the morrow for u

E ~

 

[Anonymous]

I'll see if the rest of the listing covers the breakdown. Wonder though of the 6700 plus is all the Fw 190A variants ? the list in my possession is a abad copy from Germany. I can attest in truth the nu bers for the sturm machines which I will list on the morrow for u

E ~

No, as I recall there are some 17000 A/F/G series (ie: aircooled engine) airframes laid down. That number is probably a little overstated, because in some instances new werknumbers were given to a plane composed of the parts of several existing planes, or when a plane's format/equipment was substantially changed. Also the numbering system was not consistant through the war. It's all rather confusing as I'm sure you know.

There is a huge discrepancy. Established numbers seem to be well short of the 17000 figure, but I suspect the missing planes are more evenly distributed between the A-4 through A-9 series, as well as amoung the various F and G variants than the 6700 A-8's figure would imply, but perhaps... ???

Adding up the numbers of each variant at the JBaugher 198A page, I come up with about 5500, but this includes no figures for A-3, A-5, A-0, F-8, or F-9 versions. Even he claims that there were about 17000 radial engine versions:

Example of this practice is seen in a Fw 190F-8/R-1 plane stored in the National Air and Space Museum (NASM) in Washington, USA. When, after storage in the Silver Hill facility, the process of restoration started, the old identification plate on the fuselage with serial number (Werk Nummer) W.Nr. 640069 was found. This is evidence that the airframe was taken from an A-7 plane. After rebuilding during the war, this particular plane was modified to Fw 190F-8 standard, got a new serial number (W.Nr. 931884) and was again sent to a service unit. The number of Fw 190 fighters produced with radial engines is probably 17000 planes minimum. Some authors quote higher numbers, but because each source is different, these numbers are not credible. Of course, the development of the Fw 190 plane did not end with the A, F and G versions, but continued with water-cooled in-line engines.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html

I'd also point out that just because an airframe was completed to the point of recieving a Werknumber does not mean it was ever delivered for service. I suspect the actual number in service was well under 17000, but well over 5500.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

I'll agree with the inconsistantcy of all German a/c werk nummern. I have studie the Ju 88G-6 for many a year and there just as much fonfusion there.

be back soon with the ......... SturmFw's stuff

 

[Erich]

well just had an accident..........

ok my arithmetic is off possibly

680101-680200 100 a/c
680410-680600 120 a/c this does not add up ?
680710-680860 150 a/c
680930-680970 20 a/c this does not add up ?

681020-681050 30 a/c
681250-681540 290 a/c
681801-681900 60 a/c ?
681960-681999 40 a/c

682001-682070 70 a/c
682170-682320 150 a/c
682620-682840 170 a/c ?
682901-682999 100 a/c

683310-68340 30 a/c

total for this list is 1330 SturmFw's from Fieseler, Kassel works

unless there are no gaps then the German tally is incorrect. Out of sequence is a definate.

on a second page after other A-8 variants and werk nummern I see on the bottom of the page:

Daraus ergibt sich, daß annähernd 6,655 Fw 190A-8 zur Auslieferung gelangten.

my copy is bad and hopeful this is the correct sentancing.....

E be back after the doctoral visit..........dang it

 

[lesofprimus]

Hope everything is alright with ur "Accident" Erich......

 

[Anonymous]

Erich, I hope you are okay. By "accident" do you mean in a car?

Here in the USA the term "I had an accident" most commonly refers to:

a) a car crash

b) unintential loss of bladder control

In this case, I hope it is the latter, but suspect the former, and really am unsure because of language usuage issues...

In any case I hope you are all right m8!

=====

As for the FW's, I really have no idea. All I do know is that Werknumbers alone are insufficient as:

1) they frequently do not add up as you have shown above

2) werknumbers were often assigned before an airframe was completed and/or were changed on planes or series of planes (so that one wn might be applied to two a/c), thus this does not indicated delivery.

An example of multiple werknumbers seems to relate to a rather large block of A-8's which were redesignated A-7's for some reason.

What would be interesting would be to do a search of the American arcives in Washington. However, this costs money and unless you know, at the very least, the name of the document you want or, the date of the document or, the deptartment or individual author of the document, it is very expensive to have a search done, and results are often unsatisfactory. If you have any of the above info w.r.t. FW related documents that might have fallen into Allied hands, please let me know and perhaps we can arainge a FIA search.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

your in luck as I have a listing of werk nummern for the A-7 variant which I will list shortly after work.

thanks for your wishes gents. Got hit in the face while working on the property so my vision is slightly impaired for a brief spell......will be back.

E ~

 

[Erich]

here is a tough one. Denmark 1945 after war. An A-8 or an A-9 ?

 

[Erich]

A-7 variants. primarily the A-7/R6 and the heavy A-7/Mk or A-7/R2 done up at Fieseler, Kassel

701 units

werk nummern on this variant

340001-340085 85 a/c
340210-340360 110 a/c

a/c done up at FW Cottbus
____________________________

430160-430200 40 a/c
430310-430370 30 a/c ?
430460-430510 60 a/c
430640-430710 70 a/c
430990-430999 10 a/c

431001-431020 20 a/c
431110-431190 80 a/c

done up at Ago, Oschersleben
____________________________

R2's and R6's from Fieseler, Kassel

642001-642016 16 a/c
642520-642560 40 a/c
642960-642999 40 a/c

643401-643420 20 a/c
643701-643730 30 a/c
643901-643950 50 a/c

E ~ 8)

 

[Erich]

let's see now if this works. A-9 production werke nummern from P. Rodieke's fine book on the Fw 190 variants...

my hands are starting to go