FW 200 Condor

[carman1877]

Found a great video showing a bomb run out to a Britsh Convoy. Really shows how they used guns as offensive weapons and not just defensive. Also shows the bomb bay in the gondola, along with the gunners in the gondola.



German Condor Bomber - Captured Fim Titled Long Range Bomber Over the Atlantic

 

[davebender]

The biggest asset the Condor had was it's availability (albeit in tiny numbers) as the German Navy failed to purchase long range maritime patrol aircraft during the late 1930s.

 

[carman1877]

The Condor's most have used time delay fuses on bombs becuase in the video they drop bomb 50 feet over ship and it should have blown up the ship and the plane instead it took about 3-4 seconds to detonate. Just a thought, could be wrong.

 

[TenGunTerror]

I have a book with great pictures and specs on the planes which is one of my favorites. I will hopefully be uploading them soon.

 

[flakhappy]

correct Vikings pic is a late Ju 290A of FAGr 5, I have a couple of photos including full length fuselage shot in my base.

the maritime recon was a joke and it is interesting that KG 40 was able to kick out as much success as they had. FAGr 5 took over armed recee but was not really in the attack mode but in surveliance only allowing the KM to use it's U-Boot force to it's fullest, at least that was what was proposed in theory. This indeed was one of the worst blunders of the war for the Third Reich as little to no working capabilities between the Luftwaffe and the Kreigmarine.

Grame thanks for the schematics of the Kondor variants, although the C-6 depicted would of carried the FuG 200 "H" radar as standard

E ~

Good observation. We in 15th AF bomber crews speculated repeatedly that the only reason we were winning the war was because the Germans made many more goofs than we did. It was instructive to watch.
Our enemy couldn't seem to wind a watch without poor results.

 

[Junkers88A1]

here is two Fw 200 Condor pics..one is from the invasion of Norway in 1940 ( F8+BH ) and the other is from one that emergencylanded in sweden at the end of the war in 1945 ( that is a C-5K version )

 

[Junkers88A1]

another shoot of a civilian Fw 200 Condor for Lufthansa

 

[Juha]

Hello
I liked most the 3rd picture Flyboy2 posted, looks like the old cover of the old Revell Fw 200C 1/72 scale model from early 60s.

Juha

 

[Deanimator]

I wonder why the FW 200 condor wasn't used during the Battle of Britain. Did it not operate well at high altitudes?

Production statistics aside, it was not a particularly robust airframe. Even for maritime missions, it wasn't strong enough to carry the weapon loads attempted.

The relevant volume of the old Doubleday Aircraft of WWII series had a very pertinent picture that demonstrates why the FW-200 wasn't used as a general purpose bomber. It shows an FW-200 sitting on a runway with the trailing edge of its wing sitting on the tarmac,the wing spar(s) having failed before or during takeoff. There are unexploded bombs scattered all over the runway around the aircraft. There's another photo of one whose back broke for the same reason.

It was all the FW-200 could do just to fulfill its role as a maritime patrol aircraft.

 

[Elmas]

Structural weakness of Fw 200 design also must be considered. This aircraft was primarily designed as airliner and only later military version ..................

Yes, I do agree. Structurally speaking, in short terms, the "Safety factor"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_of_safety

of the Condor was that of a civilian airliner, and not that of a military aircraft.

 

[vanir]

It was an improvisation, the Condor wasn't a bomber as we know, it was a "very long range" prewar airliner, built to break records but not to take gunfire or combat stresses.

It wasn't about a strategic air force, it was about a maritime one as again we know. Germany had neither a strategic air force nor a maritime one, shocking oversights but reasonable in the industrial environment. The Kriegsmarine had no dedicated air force, the Luftwaffe had to compensate and you have the issue with interservice rivalry for industrial resources in Germany. The Luftwaffe did not want to be subordinated to the Kriegsmarine, the system only worked well in limited engagements involving specialised, small unit formations like Fliegerkorps X. They were given unusual latitude for this role.

The Fw-200 combat modification then was a matter of utilitarian use of a surplus aircraft type valuable enough to a Navy to provide a strategic asset. It wasn't designed for it neither was it very good at it, but it was available and could do it. In a time where the Baltimore was a major British maritime bomber, the Condor seems amazing, but it is not a B-24. To the rest of the Luftwaffe the Condor, in the miniscule numbers it was represented little more than an addition to the transport fleet. So maritime bomber it was. Suits it, they don't normally fly over FlaK, and would never stand up to even a near miss if they did.

Biggest drawback was being a civilian design without being propaganda, really it was just an airliner, all the fuel lines were on the underside of the airframe as opposed to military aircraft which would protect them from groundfire. Rifle calibres with heat-tracers could bring one down if you hit it right. But ships/boats aren't exactly stable AAA platforms.

 

[nuuumannn]

Nice post vanir, but,

In a time where the Baltimore was a major British maritime bomber,

Wasn't the Baltimore an American built medium bomber that saw RAF service in North Africa?

 

[vanir]

Quite right, dammit, I was thinking of the Hudson. duh.

 

[davebender]

Ju 88H-1
Essentially a normal Ju-88 with an additional fuselage section that contained fuel tanks. Historically not funded until late 1942 but there's no reason the program couldn't have been funded by the German Navy during 1939. It could have been built concurrent with the Ju-88A. Makes more sense to me then purchasing converted airliners for about the same price.

 

[Elmas]

Ju 88H-1
...................but there's no reason the program couldn't have been funded by the German Navy during 1939. It could have been built concurrent with the Ju-88A. Makes more sense to me then purchasing converted airliners for about the same price.

I think that never, even in the most optimistic dreams, Raeder had in 1939 the idea that in June 1940 the Kriegsmarine was to operate from the harbours of Brest and La Rochelle (and from the surrounding airports) with a completely new perspective for the conduct of the war over (and under) the sea.

No wonder that they were unprepaired, and when the necessity arose, they had to use what they had immediately at hand.

 

[Shortround6]

And with 1200hp engines instead of 1600-1700hp engines a a 1939-1940 version is going to need a really, really long runway to get into the air. With a fuel load of 10,245lbs (not including drop tanks) you are already 1100lbs over the max gross weight of an A-4 and you have no crew, oil for the engines, radar, cameras or guns.

You know, maybe they went for the Fw 200 because it was a way to get a 3700-4800hp, 40-50,000lb airplane quickly (poor as it may have been) rather than try to cobble together a 2400hp, 35,000lb plane out of bits and pieces and trying to put up with the results. The Fw 200 was used primarily because the He 177 was behind schedule and turned out to be such a lemon. Maybe if they knew it would have been in production for as long as it was they would have done a more thorough job of converting it.

 

[davebender]

Then build a 4 engine version of the Do-217. And build it that way right from the beginning so it enters service by 1941.

 

[Siegfried]

I don't believe the Kriegsmarine had much say in aircraft procurment.

The Luftwaffe via Hermann Goering was in charge of anything to do with aircraft; hence even the aircraft of the Graf Zeppelin (corrected from Graf Spee) aircraft carrier were to be opperated by the Luftwaffe.

It's somewhat boggling to think of the Bismark having to venture out with such little support. On the early morning of her sinking, crippled and without enough time to make repairs but still able to make a few knots, she was just within Luftwaffe (He 111?) range yet it would seem adaquete support to drive of or delay HMS KGV, Rodney and Nelson just wasn't there. A FW 200 sent later too look for survivors and reconoiter was itself shot down by carrier based Fulmar, a fairly slow aircraft.

Instead of the FW 200 Condor the Junkers Ju 89 Bomber could have been ready with adaquet engines (the 4 x Jumo 211J of 1420hp was available by then, a big increase over the 750hp of the prototype Ju 89V1). The Luftwaffe would be then sending out a 280mph aircraft instead of a 210mph aircraft with powerfull tail armament and better armouring and quite capable of surving Fulmars and likely Sea Hurricanes and Martlets. This aircraft by mid 1942 could have become a Ju 289 (instead of a Ju 290)

That would provide martime patrols to over 1100 miles, perhaps more and as much as 1500 miles radious in its Ju 289 form if Ju 290 range is a guide. Level bombing would certainly disrupt a battleship.

There was also no long range fighter escort. A Focke-Wulf FW 187 I suspect had a range of about 660 miles with its 1100L fuel, which likely would have been increased considerably by adding wing tanks.

With 3 x 66 gallon drop tanks it probably could have provided an effective fighter escort with some loitre and considerable combat time out to 500 perhaps 600 miles to protect ships and recon aircraft against Beufighters and Mosquitos and even carrier born corsairs.

The Ju 88A4 had been somewhat knobbled in range and speed by the dive bombing requirement though with adaquet reconaisance and a range of 1420 miles it could probaby threaten shipping out to 600 miles using either dive bombing or topedoes.

The Henschell Hs 127, the Ju 88 initial faster more streamline rival of the Ju 88, would if kept lean and free of the dive brakes and structure required for tactical dive bombing should have been able to provide the luftwaffe a fast long range reconaisance aircraft bretter able to opperate in a high threat environment at great distances (I am assuming 900-1000 miles radious, similar to the Mosquito, due to aerodynmic efficiency). Moreover versions armed with forward firing 20mm guns and a internal bomb load it would be a serious threat to both ships as well as Allied maritime patrol aircraft, moreso than the Ju 88 which tried to fullfill this role. Prior to about early 1942 the Lotfe 7 and Stuvi 5B 'shallow slide' bombing sight are not available but after that this aircraft can very accurately bomb without dive bombing. Note however: A lone Me 109 for instance hit HMS Fiji and crippled her enough for Ju 88 to sink her so with training, as proven by the Mosquito, such bombsights are not neccesary.

No allied anti submarine aircraft should be completely secure within 500 miles of the French coast, as they were, and they should be threatened even out to 1000. This at least protects the u-boats in their dangerous transit through the bay of Biscay.

The Luftwaffe just didn't supply the Kriegsmarine the aircraft it needed to have a fair chance. Just keeping the u-boats secure out to 400-500 miles would have been enough. Even the Me 264 "Amerika Bomber" was actually directed at ultra long range martime patrolling with the performance to secure itself against carrier aviation threats.

 

[Erich]

don't forget the dribs and drabs of the Ju 290 series of A/C which should have replaced the Fw 200 variants but only FAGr 5 had success with the Junkers over northern waters.

 

[vanir]

Given Göring was the one who came up with the Nazi economic-industrial plan until Speer took over (Udet was a worshipper not a leader), the Kriegsmarine was buggered from the start.

Wanna know how the German aero industry dealt with Göring, I can document this. They ignored him (citing his projections as fanciful and fictional). Literally, Hitler stepped in and went schizo on them in Dec41 because they were still producing at peacetime industrial capacity, even that late into the war. Yes more loyal but stupid followers went to Dauchau. This was never addressed properly in the aero industry in Germany until late-43.

Mate they had no chance at an encompassing military industry, the whole Nazi basis of government was inherently flawed, these are the ways precisely how.