FW187 as a fighter-bomber/ground attack aircraft?

[GrauGeist]

There's many cases where the RLM had it's collective head quite a ways up it's rear end.

Many types that held promise were brushed aside like the He280, the Ar240 as well as insisting everything that flew be capable of dive-bombing. Matter of fact, I am surprised that the RLM didn't insist that the Fw200 be dive-bomb capable...

As far as the DB equipped Fw187, I recall seeing at least two photos of it, you can spot it by the different spinners (rounded, not conical) and cowl fairing. The Jumo equipped airframes had a large Stuka or P-40 style cooling inlet and a trunicated spinner like the early Jumo powered Bf109 types.

 

[Shortround6]

Greg, I get your point, but using the same logic, given the absence of documentation of something wrong with the FW187 other than in 1937 not meeting the Zerstörer spec (i.e. lack if a rear firing MG) and then in 1942 the FW187 requiring retooling at a time when there was a machine tool production capacity crunch while also not being a decent night fighter, I don't think that we can say there was a problem with the design, it just didn't meet the role envisioned by the LW at the time (of course neither did the ME210/410, but that's a different story).

Part of the "Zerstörer spec" may have been the requirement for a long range radio. The Bf 110 used the same radio as the He 111 and the equipment needed a dedicated radio operator. Once you have the weight and volume of the radio equipment and radio operator adding a single 7.9mm MG and a few 75 round drums of ammo doesn't seem like a big deal.

 

[wiking85]

Part of the "Zerstörer spec" may have been the requirement for a long range radio. The Bf 110 used the same radio as the He 111 and the equipment needed a dedicated radio operator. Once you have the weight and volume of the radio equipment and radio operator adding a single 7.9mm MG and a few 75 round drums of ammo doesn't seem like a big deal.

Yet the FW187A-0 added that second crew member and radio, but lacked that machine gun due to space constraints, so it was cancelled.

 

[GregP]

Hi Viking,

I like the Fw 187, and better than the Bf 110 or any of the other "competitors." It seriously looks like it was killed solely due to politics. I can't make that as a factual statement, but it sure LOOKS like it. Once the "hot cooling" went away for real-world field use, the performance likely would be in the 360 - 375 mph range at low altitudes and maybe in the 410 mph category up higher, making it slower than the P-38, but definitely in the fighter category as far as handling and armament go.

Seems like it would have been a very useful addition to the Luftwaffe inventory at almost any time in from 1939 - late 1943 or so. After that, it wouldn't have made any difference. The thing is, it COULD have been available in 1939 and COULD have had an impact if deployed early enough. How big an impact, I can't say.

We'll never really know.

 

[wiking85]

Hi Viking,

I like the Fw 187, and better than the Bf 110 or any of the other "competitors." It seriously looks like it was killed solely due to politics. I can't make that as a factual statement, but it sure LOOKS like it. Once the "hot cooling" went away for real-world field use, the performance likely would be in the 360 - 375 mph range at low altitudes and maybe in the 410 mph category up higher, making it slower than the P-38, but definitely in the fighter category as far as handling and armament go.

Seems like it would have been a very useful addition to the Luftwaffe inventory at almost any time in from 1939 - late 1943 or so. After that, it wouldn't have made any difference. The thing is, it COULD have been available in 1939 and COULD have had an impact if deployed early enough. How big an impact, I can't say.

We'll never really know.

I wouldn't say politics per se, rather faulty spec. Goering was obsessed with the Zerstörer concept, though the professionals all hated it, resulting in Walter Wever making an impassioned plea for Goering to just let it go in 1935. Wever and Richthofen were both well aware of the need for a long range escort fighter and Richthofen wanted the FW187, but the only way he could get funding was by entering it into the Destroyer competition, which it couldn't win on due to getting left over engines and modifying the design to meet Goering's spec. Later as the Me210 failed the design was adapted, but it wasn't effective as a night fighter/intruder even being modified, so it had to be dropped as the BF110's performance as a night fighter had altered the concept of the Destroyer to fit that role; the FW187 was good for most of what the Bf110 did, but night fighter was outside its wheel house; of course the ME410 wasn't really that great in that role either, ultimately resulting in the Ju88; so the Destroyer concept should not have included night fighter beyond 1943, but that is said with hindsight. The original sin was adopting the Bf110 in 1937 and dropping the FW187. The Do215 and Ju88C would have been plenty good as night fighters/intruders without the Bf110.

Now my understanding of the original design was that with traditional radiators (not retractable ones or the evaporative cooling ones) with the DB601 it could theoretically achieve around 370mph at rated altitude, which lower performance at sea level; the DB605 version later on could have bumped this up to 425mph at rated altitude and around 380-90mph at sea level (without MW or GM boost AFAIK). Not sure about the BMW equipped version, but that probably, even with greater weight due to stronger wings, bigger engines, and greater drag of the radials achieved even more than 425mph at rate altitude, but with less range due to worse fuel economy of the radials and with a 'clean' exterior (i.e. no external load). Which model did you think would achieve 370mph at sea level?

 

[nuuumannn]

In light of experience with getting the Fw 190 into production and service and the LW's enthusiasm for it, considering the RLM placed a contract for it in mid/late 1937 it seems not 100 percent likely (although I could very well be wrong) that politics was the reason behind the RLM's reluctance to proceed with the Fw 187. Some time after the fact, Tank himself - someone here might be able to verify where there is any truth in this statement, stated the following:

"When we designed the Focke Wulf 190 in the summer of 1937, there were many in the RLM who believed our fighter had little chance against the concepts then coming from Messerschmitt. But because we chose a radial engine that would not conflict with the short supply of the liquid cooled powerplants earmarked for aircraft then in production, yet one that promised a great deal more horsepower than available at the time, several of our friends in procurement persuaded the technical bureau to give us a chance."

Perhaps, and this is me hypothesising, the RLM had its focus clearly on Fw producing the single seat "ein zweites eisen im feuer" - second iron in the fire to the Bf 109 and that the Zerstorer concept held much sway over other considerations, to the extent that whomever made the decisions regarding the Fw 187 could not see that it could be capable of fulfilling the Zerstorer specification with modification. Perhaps the individual/s had foresight enough to see that too much modification to the airframe might reduce its subsequent performance advantage, or was it just that Willi had more sway in the RLM than Tank, so the Bf 110 was proceeded with and not the Fw 187? Also, could this shortage of inline powerplant may have had an impact on the decision to proceed with the Fw 190 and Bf 110, but not another inline engined aircraft?

The thing is, it COULD have been available in 1939 and COULD have had an impact if deployed early enough. How big an impact, I can't say.

If it was as good as its protagonists here state, then it would have made waves, that's for sure, but one aspect of the Fw 187 'what if' that is almost always overlooked is that the Nazis being the shameless self promotionists they were wouldn't be able to help themselves and extoll the virtues of their new fighter to the public pre war, therefore this might have triggered off some kind of counter response within the British Air Ministry - it certainly would have once the shooting started, particularly during the Battle of Britain - if it was as good as is often claimed - the Brits, finding that their primary fighters were easily matched might engage in future fighter requirement discussions, which is what happened when the Fw 190 first appeared. What results might have come about from these discussions?

Which brings us to the next step in the Falke's impact - what of the Fw 190? which Focke Wulf aeroplane would have been affected production wise had the Fw 187 been put into production? Would new lines have been built and did Fw have the resources to conduct both the 187 and 190 development simultaneously?

 

[GregP]

Actually Viking, I wasn't thinking of sea level at all. To me, "low level" in the ETO is in the 8,000 to 15,000 foot range. The ETO was the high altitude theater and if sea level performance were important at all, then the Allison P-51 would have been near the top of the heap.

I was thinking the DB 601 engined Fw 187 would have been a good plane for a twin engine fighter, and figured it would handle well and be in the area of "competitive with the single-engine, single seaters" while being a bit faster or slower depending on altitude ... probably faster at altitude since it would probably retain a better power loading as it went upward, relative to the single-engine fighters.

I certainly didn't mean to start a war over it in any case. I have yet to see one, single flight test report that I can read, so it's all conjecture on my part anyway. That means I haven't located any of the referenced flight test reports from the book, but I also have not searched German archives, not being fluent in German in any case. I'm sure they are there somewhere ... maybe at Focke-Wulf, or whatever branch of EADS it has become.

Perhaps some of our German friends can post some real flight test reports and do some bit of translation for us. The important things would be the werknummer, engines installed, and performance numbers. We can probably read the performance numbers but not the German "text" not directly related to the numbers.

 

[Denniss]

One could be under the impression Willy used his good connection to the RLM to have this dangerous oponent (for his Bf 110) eliminated, the same connections that prevented him from a complete cancellation of the Me 210/410 project.
Bodennähe is not to be translated into low level, it's rather near ground level. I've seen this term in connection with the C-3 injection system on Fw 190 JaBos were usage was permitted in Bodennähe up to 1000m.

 

[GregP]

Hi Denniss,

Since the Focke-Wulf factory was located in a city with a mean altitude of some 39 feet mean sea level, and since you say Bodennähe means near ground level, then perhaps the figure WAS for very near sea level. I can accept that. I'd still like to see the flight test data for werknummer 1976 (the V5) simply because there is so much MORE data than top speed in the flight reports. The configuration is almost always included, and that would clear up the installed engine type, which most probably ARE DB engines.

My English language version of the Fw 187 books doesn't say sea level, but I certainly believe you and would have believed DonL about the meaning of the German word, but that word is not in my version of the book ... mine is in English. So I could not even have asked about the meaning of "Bodennähe." I never questioned his, or your, understanding of German ... it's just that I personally don't speak, read, or write German ... so what may seem obvious to Germans in a German text probably loses a bit in the translated book. Translations by nature lose a bit of detail and introduce some inaccuracies, don't you think?

You ought to see the Chinese language manual we had translated for a MiG-15 UTI back in the 1990's! We had it translated THREE times and none of the translations agreed with one another! That was $6,000 wasted! We finally had a manual in Polish translated and it made sense and at least was consistent with itself.

Some rational discussion about the Fw 187 would be the obvious means of clearing up the issues. I assume you have the German language version of the Fw 187 book. In that version of book, is there any mention of flight test data for the Fw 187 V5 in the references section? I can't find any such reference in my copy ... but that does not mean it wasn't there in the German reference section before translation.

In my copy, they cite flight test data for the V2, V3, and three of the A0 models, but not the V5 (werknummer 1976). They DO have reports on the V5 cooling system, cost summaries, and some early design documents, and contracts for conversion to DB 605s ... but no actual V5 flight data. That makes me wonder where the 635 kph figure for low altitude top speed came from. I bet the flight test data IS available somewhere or they would not have a top speed unless it was made up (unlikely), calculated (quite possibly), or was the max observed indicated airspeed by the pilot (possibly). There are only so many logical alternatives. If the flight data DO exist, there almost MUST be a report somewhere or we would not even have the observed speed.

I won't accuse anyone of fabricating data without some evidence of it and I have no such evidence in this case, so I assume the authors wrote what they wrote in good faith.

Can you shed some light here? If so, thank you very much. If not, thanks for trying.

 

[Shortround6]

Yet the FW187A-0 added that second crew member and radio, but lacked that machine gun due to space constraints, so it was cancelled.

Actually one or more of the Fw 187 prototypes ( and I include the A-0 series here) were fitted for a rearward firing MG. At least there are photos of the gun mount and slot in the rear canopy. It may have been too late and it may have been too little, the gun would NOT point horizontal but only around 20 degrees above horizontal and further up if I remember right.

The main problem the FW 187 had was timing. The first flight of a two seater prototype is after the BF 110 already was adopted and had a production line set up and running although in small quantities due to engine problems. The Jumo powered 110s were produced at a lower rate than the production line/s were capable of but gave the workers something to do, helped sort out production problems and gave the first training units something to fly and practice with until the DB engines became available.
The FW 187 wasn't cancelled so much as it was never adopted. To cancel the Bf 110 in favor of the Fw 187 in 1938/early 39 requires shutting down an existing, tooled up production line and building a new production line.

Something like 189 DB powered Bf 110s had been accepted by the Luftwaffe by the end of Aug 1939 (not all issued to user units) and there were 3 production lines in operation (including one by FW) working at that time.
The FW 187 "program" was running about 1 year behind the Bf 110 "program" with the FW 187A-0s being built in the summer of 1939.
Perhaps the Bf 110s weren't that important in the Polish campaign.

 

[wiking85]

Actually one or more of the Fw 187 prototypes ( and I include the A-0 series here) were fitted for a rearward firing MG. At least there are photos of the gun mount and slot in the rear canopy. It may have been too late and it may have been too little, the gun would NOT point horizontal but only around 20 degrees above horizontal and further up if I remember right.

The main problem the FW 187 had was timing. The first flight of a two seater prototype is after the BF 110 already was adopted and had a production line set up and running although in small quantities due to engine problems. The Jumo powered 110s were produced at a lower rate than the production line/s were capable of but gave the workers something to do, helped sort out production problems and gave the first training units something to fly and practice with until the DB engines became available.
The FW 187 wasn't cancelled so much as it was never adopted. To cancel the Bf 110 in favor of the Fw 187 in 1938/early 39 requires shutting down an existing, tooled up production line and building a new production line.

Something like 189 DB powered Bf 110s had been accepted by the Luftwaffe by the end of Aug 1939 (not all issued to user units) and there were 3 production lines in operation (including one by FW) working at that time.
The FW 187 "program" was running about 1 year behind the Bf 110 "program" with the FW 187A-0s being built in the summer of 1939.
Perhaps the Bf 110s weren't that important in the Polish campaign.

From reading the GAF monographs for the USAAF I think only a handful of Bf110s even participated (3 gruppen IIRC). The Ju88 later had the same issue in France (only some 100 or so participated).

 

[Shortround6]

From reading the GAF monographs for the USAAF I think only a handful of Bf110s even participated (3 gruppen IIRC). The Ju88 later had the same issue in France (only some 100 or so participated).

The Fw 187 may have had some advantages over the 110 but the 110 took over three years to go from prototype first flight to service with 3 gruppen. Unless the FW 187 can be considerably speeded up it means 3 -4 gruppen in the summer of 1940.

They weren't really built to the same requirement or in the same actual time frame. Aircraft (and to some extent engines) in the 1930s were progressing something like electronics are now, major changes almost every 18-24 months. If you keep waiting for the latest/greatest thing you wind up using nothing and if you buy too early you have a rather obsolete piece of equipment sooner than other people.

 

[wiking85]

The Fw 187 may have had some advantages over the 110 but the 110 took over three years to go from prototype first flight to service with 3 gruppen. Unless the FW 187 can be considerably speeded up it means 3 -4 gruppen in the summer of 1940.

They weren't really built to the same requirement or in the same actual time frame. Aircraft (and to some extent engines) in the 1930s were progressing something like electronics are now, major changes almost every 18-24 months. If you keep waiting for the latest/greatest thing you wind up using nothing and if you buy too early you have a rather obsolete piece of equipment sooner than other people.

That depends on whether the Bf110 and FW187 had the same development cycle. IIRC the Bf110 required considerable development, while the FW187, other than changing its cockpit to accommodate another crew member and having to use a different engine than designed around, didn't require nearly as much development changes. The V1 and V2 prototypes were the single seat versions and were pretty solid overall AFAIK, before having to switch to two crew members. The only major change if the two crew member requirement is not adopted is upgraded engines, as the design was solid. Later of course there would need to be upgrades to the fuselage to handle the adapted roles, but it seems that would have been possible without too much compromise of its aerodynamic qualities. The Bf110 though was a bit of a mess, as were its successors. IMHO there could have been at least 1 gruppe ready in September 1939.

 

[Shortround6]

The Luftwaffe had issued a requirement for a "Kampfzerstorer" which included a bomb bay. This resulted in several proposals including the Fw 57 and Henschel 124 but the proposal tried to be too many things to too many people. Messerschmitt's proposal had left out the bomb bay and several other features. With the realization that the Kampfzerstorer requirement as written was not workable the Bf 110 became sort of a fall back position (Zerstörer) (while a new schnellbomber requirement was drawn up).

There is a statement in wiki that may be in error and leading to confusion.

"Thus the order for four pre-production A-0 units was placed. The first of these were delivered on January 1937. During this testing, both the Focke-Wulf Fw 187 and Henschel Hs 124 competitors were rejected and the Bf 110 was ordered into full production."

This is referring to the Bf 110. Now in Jan 1937 the Focke-Wulf Fw 57 was in existence and flight testing of the 3 prototypes had pretty much stopped by Jan 1937. the first single seat Fw 187 will not fly until May of 1937 and the first 2 seater, the V3 not flying until the early spring of 1938. Now just when in 1937 was this "testing" done and using what for aircraft?
The last of the 4 Bf 110A-0 aircraft is rolled out in March of 1938 and plans had already been put in place for the production of the Bf 110B but delays in production of the DB600/601 engines forced the retention of the Jumo 210 engines in the B series aircraft. That is some of the delay in the 110 program and has little to do with the aircraft itself. Again, 3 different plants had production contracts for the 110 at the start of the war and were delivering aircraft and a 4th was being brought in. It can take around a year or more from the placing of the contract to when the first aircraft roles out the door.

I don't believe there was ever a fly-off or actual completion between the two aircraft. In fact "politics" might have kept it alive after it was rejected as a single seat fighter and the suggestion made to try it as a 2 seat Zerstörer. Now the question is wither "politics" was strong enough to stop the existing Bf 110 program and change over to the Fw 187.

 

[GregP]

Reference post #70 Shortround.

I appreciate that! It had not occurred to me that the Bf 110 was already in production! To figure it all out requires someone to look at the overall situation, and I dropped the ball on that one while you didn't.

Taken in that light it makes perfect sense since the German economy was still in the grip of poverty from the Treaty of Versailles' terms. Shutting down the production line of a modern twin-engine warplane in favor of another with what would have been perceived as slightly better speed and somewhat better handling would not have made economic sense even though it would have been militarily preferable to the pilots and to the Luftwaffe.

In fact, doing so might have set back Hitler's planes for war by up to 6 - 8 months, and I doubt he'd accept that for a slightly better aircraft in lieu of what was perceived at the time as a good one anyway.

Good thinking, Shortround! It explains the decision and makes it sensible at the same time.

 

[wiking85]

Reference post #70 Shortround.

I appreciate that! It had not occurred to me that the Bf 110 was already in production! To figure it all out requires someone to look at the overall situation, and I dropped the ball on that one while you didn't.

Taken in that light it makes perfect sense since the German economy was still in the grip of poverty from the Treaty of Versailles' terms. Shutting down the production line of a modern twin-engine warplane in favor of another with what would have been perceived as slightly better speed and somewhat better handling would not have made economic sense even though it would have been militarily preferable to the pilots and to the Luftwaffe.

In fact, doing so might have set back Hitler's planes for war by up to 6 - 8 months, and I doubt he'd accept that for a slightly better aircraft in lieu of what was perceived at the time as a good one anyway.

Good thinking, Shortround! It explains the decision and makes it sensible at the same time.

Remember though that the early Bf110s of this period were not militarily usable, it was a public works project to a degree, but also to build up experience with pilots and production teams. Its not like they couldn't afford to do so, but Goering was dead set on the Bf110 by this point.

 

[Shortround6]

Not really a public works project but, like a few projects in other countries, a result of a little too optimistic predictions of development and production.

The Bf 110 was never intended to actually use Jumo 210s in "production" models (and neither was the FW 187) but the DB 600 turned out to be a bit less usable in service (fair bomber engine but not so good in fighters?) than promised in addition to be being late making it into production. The Bf 109Ds also got Jumo 210s while DB got their act together and got the DB 601 sorted out and into production. 647 109Ds with Jumo 210s were built, were they a "public works project"?

Do you build Bf 110 airframes and push them out the door (production line is already set up) without engines and wait for DB to make good on promises or do you fit Jumo 210s to the airframes and get the experience in the units ( and not just pilots flying the planes but ground crew and work out tactics)? or do you let the production line/s sit idle and have the workers paint the walls while they wait for Daimler Benz to deliver engines?

Some of the Gruppen that attacked Poland used 2 staffeln of 110Cs and 1 schulstaffel of 110Bs with the Jumo engines so they were used in combat just like several hundred 109Ds were used in the Polish campaign.

Maybe somebody knows what DB was promising but I doubt that they said "Sorry, we screwed up, you won't get ANY engines until 18 months from now". More likely they kept delaying the first deliveries by a couple months at a time a number of times in row.

Trying NOT to pick on DB too much here as at least one (if not two) English companies did the same thing. Wright did the same thing with the R-3350 and P&W in 1940 was hoping to have the R-4360 in service by the end of the war (whenever they thought that was going to be in 1940).

 

[wiking85]

Much of the LW's early construction was make work projects that employed people, but also rehabilitated and expanded the industry, while giving it experience in modern mass production of warplanes. "Arming the Luftwaffe" by Edward Homze gets into this quite a bit. Milch needed to rebuild the industry from scratch and spent 1933-36 doing just that; by the time the Bf110 got into production it was cutting edge, so the feeling was that though the Daimler engines were not going to be available in required numbers they could build the airframe to train the industry on its construction so that when the right engines were available they could be put to use. When you mention the Jumo engined version, they used the fuel injected G version of the 210, which was much more like the Daimler in capability than the early 210; plus it was a desperation move to get something in the air to escort bombers over Poland.