FW187 as a fighter-bomber/ground attack aircraft?
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DonL
Banned
The FW 187 was a true multi role a/c!
But her true genes were fighter and speed genes.
The Fw 187 would be able to perform every mission as good as the Me 110, but was realy better at the fighter role, so the proposed fighter-bomber/ground attack aircraft role could only be a temporary job, because the FW 190 was much better in this role.
But her true genes were fighter and speed genes.
The Fw 187 would be able to perform every mission as good as the Me 110, but was realy better at the fighter role, so the proposed fighter-bomber/ground attack aircraft role could only be a temporary job, because the FW 190 was much better in this role.
I have just received Dietmar Hermann's book on the Focke Wulf Fw 187.
The aircraft was originally conceived around the Daimler Benz DB600, a 960hp engine that was essentially an DB601 without the fuel injection. Kurt Tank was however forced to use the Jumo 210G, a much smaller 21L of only 700hp engine due to supply issues concerns within the RLM (Reichs Luftfahrts Ministerium), the 3rd Reichs Air Ministry, as DB601 production had been allocated to Me 109/Me 110. The Fw 187 was 45kmh faster than the Me 109 with the same engine. It was 66kmh faster than the Bf 110 at sea level and 100kmh faster at high altitude also with the same Jumo 210 engines.
Incidentally although the aircraft was larger than the Whirlwind it was actually 1000kg lighter.
Conversion to DB601 would have been easy, in fact was done on one prototype. A version with the DB605 was ordered, but not completed.
Also seriously looked at when the Me 210 failed was a version with a raised cockpit and Me 210 cheek guns evolved into a Zerstoerer and a dive bomber.
The basic Jumo 210G engined aircraft had excellent visibility with a glass panel between the pilots feet.
The Fw 187 with DB601 was to be known as the Fw 187B
The Fw 187B with the DB605A (the low altitude version of that engine without the enlarged supercharger) was estimated to have a service ceiling of 13000m (43000ft) which is as high as the US turbo charged aircraft and the High Flying two stage Merlin spitfires. A variant with the high altitude DB605AS or DB605D would have had stupendous performance.
Speed with DB605A at was estimated to be 682kmh or 423.5mph with an armament of 4 x 20mm MG151 and 2 x 13.2mm MG. With emergency power it was estimated at 697kmh (433mph)
Range was estimated at 1200km/h. For comparison the Me 109G6 with only 1 20mm gun could manage 387 at 1.3 ata and only 397mph-400mph at 1.42ata boost.
It had 1250L of fuel, three times the 400L of the Me 109's and so its range at maximum sustainable speed was twice as much at 1200km (736 miles). With 900L of drop tanks (probably 2 x 450L(100 gallon) or 3 x 300L(66 gallon) its range was 1750km.(1100 miles). The Me 110 could carry 2 x 600L tanks so more carriage was possible)
The aircraft could have conducted fighter sweeps and hit and runs raids of the UK from German soil, not French soil.
The DB605ASM engine in the Me 109G6ASM added about 18mph to the basic Me 109G6 to achieve 414mph (15mph if we accept that 3mph was from the more streamline cowl) while the Me 106G10 achieved another 20mph ie 434mph on the DB605DBM engine. So speeds of 450 to 470mph or more might have been possible.
Clearly the aircraft would have allowed reconnaissance of the British coast if not all of the Isles itself, the two crew versions when equipped with the light weight Fug 217 radar developed for single engined aircraft could have hunted Mosquito. (the single engined fighters could not use them as the phosphors blinded the pilots night vision)
It could have been in service with DB601 engines earlier than the Me 109F in say 1941, maybe even earlier and it could have entered service with DB605 engines in early 1942. It would have out run any Merlin engined spitfire.
And with DB605ASM and DB605DB/DC engines probably kept up with Griffon Spitfires and Merlin Mustangs.
Bomb load was 2000kg (4400lbs).
It would have been a very useful aircraft indeed. It would of course have been ruined if turned into the Zerstorer concept.
It could have been used as a low level raider, its speed at sea level with DB605A engine was 547kph, 342mph without emergency power. Though the same as the unboosted Fw 190 it would have been less slowed down by bombs due to its greater power and as soon as water methanol boost came in in March 1944 it would have been faster.
The issue of Armour for ground attack versions would not have been too much. 1 square meter of 10mm Armour weighs 72kg. I would imagine less than 2 sq meter is required for the front and back. It is traditional to only armour the back of a pilots seat and his seat pan. Stormbok Fw 190s however added side 5mm side armour, bottom Armour and all round bullet proof glass that seems to have been effective against 0.5 inch guns. Two square meters of 5mm armour adds 72kg, so maybe 220kg, about 500lbs would be enough.
In 1944 the German aircraft industry is breaking production records: 2500 aircraft per month. Goering and Milch by this time had fallen out but he made the correct comment after the war that Saur, who was by then in charge of production and not an airman, was producing record numbers of aircraft that couldn't be delivered, had no pilots and had inadequate fuel.
The Germans at this point could have cut production and instead produced higher quality aircraft, such as the Fw 187. It's worth noting that for the trivial cost of the cowling sheet metal of Me 109G5/G6 gun bulges the aircraft lost 6mph at a time Luftwaffe pilots were well behind new allied aircraft.
Any aircraft entering service after 1941 seems to have had no chance of achieving high levels of production. The Fw 187 could have achieved mass production. It had no serious issues.
The German armaments industry and aviation industry was not inefficiently run or inefficiently managed. It did however have a procurement problem.
The aircraft was originally conceived around the Daimler Benz DB600, a 960hp engine that was essentially an DB601 without the fuel injection. Kurt Tank was however forced to use the Jumo 210G, a much smaller 21L of only 700hp engine due to supply issues concerns within the RLM (Reichs Luftfahrts Ministerium), the 3rd Reichs Air Ministry, as DB601 production had been allocated to Me 109/Me 110. The Fw 187 was 45kmh faster than the Me 109 with the same engine. It was 66kmh faster than the Bf 110 at sea level and 100kmh faster at high altitude also with the same Jumo 210 engines.
Incidentally although the aircraft was larger than the Whirlwind it was actually 1000kg lighter.
Conversion to DB601 would have been easy, in fact was done on one prototype. A version with the DB605 was ordered, but not completed.
Also seriously looked at when the Me 210 failed was a version with a raised cockpit and Me 210 cheek guns evolved into a Zerstoerer and a dive bomber.
The basic Jumo 210G engined aircraft had excellent visibility with a glass panel between the pilots feet.
The Fw 187 with DB601 was to be known as the Fw 187B
The Fw 187B with the DB605A (the low altitude version of that engine without the enlarged supercharger) was estimated to have a service ceiling of 13000m (43000ft) which is as high as the US turbo charged aircraft and the High Flying two stage Merlin spitfires. A variant with the high altitude DB605AS or DB605D would have had stupendous performance.
Speed with DB605A at was estimated to be 682kmh or 423.5mph with an armament of 4 x 20mm MG151 and 2 x 13.2mm MG. With emergency power it was estimated at 697kmh (433mph)
Range was estimated at 1200km/h. For comparison the Me 109G6 with only 1 20mm gun could manage 387 at 1.3 ata and only 397mph-400mph at 1.42ata boost.
It had 1250L of fuel, three times the 400L of the Me 109's and so its range at maximum sustainable speed was twice as much at 1200km (736 miles). With 900L of drop tanks (probably 2 x 450L(100 gallon) or 3 x 300L(66 gallon) its range was 1750km.(1100 miles). The Me 110 could carry 2 x 600L tanks so more carriage was possible)
The aircraft could have conducted fighter sweeps and hit and runs raids of the UK from German soil, not French soil.
The DB605ASM engine in the Me 109G6ASM added about 18mph to the basic Me 109G6 to achieve 414mph (15mph if we accept that 3mph was from the more streamline cowl) while the Me 106G10 achieved another 20mph ie 434mph on the DB605DBM engine. So speeds of 450 to 470mph or more might have been possible.
Clearly the aircraft would have allowed reconnaissance of the British coast if not all of the Isles itself, the two crew versions when equipped with the light weight Fug 217 radar developed for single engined aircraft could have hunted Mosquito. (the single engined fighters could not use them as the phosphors blinded the pilots night vision)
It could have been in service with DB601 engines earlier than the Me 109F in say 1941, maybe even earlier and it could have entered service with DB605 engines in early 1942. It would have out run any Merlin engined spitfire.
And with DB605ASM and DB605DB/DC engines probably kept up with Griffon Spitfires and Merlin Mustangs.
Bomb load was 2000kg (4400lbs).
It would have been a very useful aircraft indeed. It would of course have been ruined if turned into the Zerstorer concept.
It could have been used as a low level raider, its speed at sea level with DB605A engine was 547kph, 342mph without emergency power. Though the same as the unboosted Fw 190 it would have been less slowed down by bombs due to its greater power and as soon as water methanol boost came in in March 1944 it would have been faster.
The issue of Armour for ground attack versions would not have been too much. 1 square meter of 10mm Armour weighs 72kg. I would imagine less than 2 sq meter is required for the front and back. It is traditional to only armour the back of a pilots seat and his seat pan. Stormbok Fw 190s however added side 5mm side armour, bottom Armour and all round bullet proof glass that seems to have been effective against 0.5 inch guns. Two square meters of 5mm armour adds 72kg, so maybe 220kg, about 500lbs would be enough.
In 1944 the German aircraft industry is breaking production records: 2500 aircraft per month. Goering and Milch by this time had fallen out but he made the correct comment after the war that Saur, who was by then in charge of production and not an airman, was producing record numbers of aircraft that couldn't be delivered, had no pilots and had inadequate fuel.
The Germans at this point could have cut production and instead produced higher quality aircraft, such as the Fw 187. It's worth noting that for the trivial cost of the cowling sheet metal of Me 109G5/G6 gun bulges the aircraft lost 6mph at a time Luftwaffe pilots were well behind new allied aircraft.
Any aircraft entering service after 1941 seems to have had no chance of achieving high levels of production. The Fw 187 could have achieved mass production. It had no serious issues.
The German armaments industry and aviation industry was not inefficiently run or inefficiently managed. It did however have a procurement problem.
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DonL
Banned
Congratulation to the book from Mr. Hermann.
It is the real standard work about the FW 187 and a must read for every fan of this beautiful a/c.
It is the real standard work about the FW 187 and a must read for every fan of this beautiful a/c.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
I don't buy that explanation for one minute. Jumo 211 replaced Jumo 210 at the two new Junkers engine factories during 1938. So it was impossible to mass produce any Jumo 210 powered aircraft after 1938. Forcing Fw-187 and He-112 to use Jumo 210 engine was just another way of telling aircraft designers to get lost.
Junkers Engines - Jumo 211
If RLM had been interested in Fw-187 they might have requested prototypes powered by soon to be plentiful Jumo 211 engine. Or they might have ordered the large engine plants under construction at Leipzig and/or Stettin be tooled for DB601 production rather then Jumo 211.
GregP
Major
Another extremely good candidate is the Grumman F7F Tigercat, depending on WHEN you need it.
Four 50-cal plus four 20 mm cannons. None went through the propellers, so no synchronizer gear to slow down the fire. At next year's Chino airshow, we seem to heading toward a Tigercat gathering, with quite a few already having committed to be there.
Four 50-cal plus four 20 mm cannons. None went through the propellers, so no synchronizer gear to slow down the fire. At next year's Chino airshow, we seem to heading toward a Tigercat gathering, with quite a few already having committed to be there.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
A beautiful aircraft but was it suitable for CAS?
Fuselage is too narrow for a serious bomb bay. Not an automatic disqualification but, all other things being equal, a bomb bay is nice. Alternately you need external weapon racks which can carry at least 1,000lbs.
Was F7F armored to protect against ground fire?
F7F was a fast aircraft. Did it have dive brakes to slow aircraft when attacking ground targets?
Fuselage is too narrow for a serious bomb bay. Not an automatic disqualification but, all other things being equal, a bomb bay is nice. Alternately you need external weapon racks which can carry at least 1,000lbs.
Was F7F armored to protect against ground fire?
F7F was a fast aircraft. Did it have dive brakes to slow aircraft when attacking ground targets?
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I think the narrowness would have been a plus, the Huey Cobra enjoys that benefit as well.
I have to admit, I did not realize is was that skinny!
I have to admit, I did not realize is was that skinny!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The F7F could carry up to 2 x 1,000 pound (454kg) bombs mounted under the wings...
and 8 rockets and a torpedo.
- Thread starter
- #32
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Given the narrower fuselage of the Tigercat being able to carry all of that, less than the FW187 in fact, it would seem that the FW187 would have been a fine fighter-bomber and strafer, if not dive bomber and cannon-totting ground attack aircraft (for tank or train busting). The only thing the Bf110 had on the FW187 then was its night fighter capabilities, which is a trade off over the FW187's fighter and bomber destroying capabilities. With better daylight performance, the Ju88C and Do215 could handle night operations until the Ju88G showed up. Perhaps without the Bf110 the Luftwaffe would focus on making the Ju88 into a purpose built night fighter sooner, which IMHO was better than relying on the Bf110 until 1943, plus without the BF110 then there is no need for the crappy Me210/410 option, as the FW187 could do those jobs better for the most part; what it couldn't do the Ju88 could (night fighter-G series/intruder-S series).
davebender
1st Lieutenant
What about armor? Protection against .30cal size machinegun fire would be the minimum requirement as every infantry squad has one and they will shoot back.
- Thread starter
- #34
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
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- #35
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Assuming the BMW engined FW187 was feasible as an fighter-bomber, what sort of performance would we be looking at? AFAIK the quoted numbers previously for the FW187 were with the DB605; the BMW had >200hp more per engine than the 605, more depending on the model of BMW. However it was heavier and wider...
Also what about the FW187 as a bomber destroyer, with the 4x20mm cannons and 2xMG131s in its clean fighter version? It would have the speed at altitude with the DB605s to stay ahead or equal to the P-51 or any other fighter, especially in a dive (approach from above, dive and spray the bomber box, dive away from the melee). They wouldn't need an escort and would have the concentrated firepower that all but the BF110 and Me210 lacked historically, but the speed, maneuverability, and energy to handle things unescorted. I imagine they could fit the MK108 later when its available too, replacing the 4x20mms for 2x30mms. Then they just need a couple of hits to do that job. So they could approach like the Me262: come from above, dive, pull up and spray the bombers from below and then kick into a dive and get away. Perhaps they could get some dive brakes the extend their pull up time for more accuracy during firing.
Also what about the FW187 as a bomber destroyer, with the 4x20mm cannons and 2xMG131s in its clean fighter version? It would have the speed at altitude with the DB605s to stay ahead or equal to the P-51 or any other fighter, especially in a dive (approach from above, dive and spray the bomber box, dive away from the melee). They wouldn't need an escort and would have the concentrated firepower that all but the BF110 and Me210 lacked historically, but the speed, maneuverability, and energy to handle things unescorted. I imagine they could fit the MK108 later when its available too, replacing the 4x20mms for 2x30mms. Then they just need a couple of hits to do that job. So they could approach like the Me262: come from above, dive, pull up and spray the bombers from below and then kick into a dive and get away. Perhaps they could get some dive brakes the extend their pull up time for more accuracy during firing.
GregP
Major
No BMW or DB-engined FW 187 was ever built.
They started to build the FW 187-V7 with the DB engines. The plane was 80% completed when it was decided to finish it as an Fw 187 B-0 testbed for evaporative cooling. It was delivered to the RLM in Dec 40 and completed testing in Dec 42. It never got DB or BMW engines.
This is according to " Focke-Wulf Fw 187, An Illustrated History" by Dietmar Hermann and Peter Petrick.
They started to build the FW 187-V7 with the DB engines. The plane was 80% completed when it was decided to finish it as an Fw 187 B-0 testbed for evaporative cooling. It was delivered to the RLM in Dec 40 and completed testing in Dec 42. It never got DB or BMW engines.
This is according to " Focke-Wulf Fw 187, An Illustrated History" by Dietmar Hermann and Peter Petrick.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Fw187 CI+NY (WkNmr 1976) was fitted with DB engines and flown late 1939 onward. While it proved to be fast, it was prone to skin buckling and cooling problems. Last mention of it was 1942.
Info from Manfred Griehl's research.
Info from Manfred Griehl's research.
GregP
Major
I see that in my reference above, it is said to have been completed with the DB601s but there are no performance numbers. According to another source, it achieved some 391 mph but, in service, the use of conventional radiators would have slowed it to 348 mph, so it was discarded. Another reference, German Aircraft of the Second World War by Kay Smith says it had DB 600 engines, not DB 601s, and that it was deemed "unsuitable."
So ... I overlooked the V5 in my first post and cannot find any two references that agree on either performance or engines installed ... other than the dates when it was accepted, Aug 1940, and the when taken out of service, July 1941, and parked.
I have no record of flights completed in any of the references.
It certainly LOOKS like a potential winner, but so did a lot of other potential service aircraft that were not eventually accepted into service ... on both sides. Maybe the radical cooling system was its downfall because it showed very promising performance until conventional radiators were needed. Then it's predicted performance became rather ordinary, speed-wise.
Maybe they didn't look much at handling when the projected top speed didn't represent a jump in performance in that category.
So ... I overlooked the V5 in my first post and cannot find any two references that agree on either performance or engines installed ... other than the dates when it was accepted, Aug 1940, and the when taken out of service, July 1941, and parked.
I have no record of flights completed in any of the references.
It certainly LOOKS like a potential winner, but so did a lot of other potential service aircraft that were not eventually accepted into service ... on both sides. Maybe the radical cooling system was its downfall because it showed very promising performance until conventional radiators were needed. Then it's predicted performance became rather ordinary, speed-wise.
Maybe they didn't look much at handling when the projected top speed didn't represent a jump in performance in that category.
The reason Kurt Tank wanted to use DB600/601 was that they had pressurized cooling circuits which made them suitable for evaporative skin cooling which was all the rage for a while, Mitchell even tried it on the progenitor for the Spitfire. Neither the Jumo 210 or early Jumo 211 had a pressurized cooling circuit. Nevertheless the small Jumo 210 (21 Litres) using only radiators was still 100kmh faster than the Bf 109D which used the same engine.
The idea with a evaporative skin cooling is to take the pressurized hot water from the engine, allow it to flash into steam, then use a centrifuge to separate out any water, then to condense the steam to a liquid in the skin of the aircraft eg the leading edges. Scavenge pumps than collect the water.
Evaporative skin cooling added a lot of problems and became unattractive because the pressurized cooling circuits allowed higher radiator temperatures. These allowed smaller radiators and furthermore allowed the radiator to be designed as a "ramjet" to recover the heat as thrust that virtually counterbalanced the effect of radiator drag. I don't think the DB605 variant was to use it at all. Heinkel actually kept working on it, to overcome such issues as skin buckling, but it was one of those things hardly considered worth it. By the time one had debugged such an installation one could have been in production and solved the drag issue in some other way.
A pressurised cooling circuit was added to the Jumo 211F and 211J as well as a small intercooler in 1941. This is why the power went up from 1000hp to 1350 and 1450 respectively.
Choosing the Jumo 211A to power the Fw 187 would have been a very effective move. From the Jumo 211F onwards the 211 was 15% lighter and actually slightly more powerful than the DB605A until MW50 came in on the db605 in 1944. It was also very reliable and trouble free compared to the DB605.
Nevertheless in 1937 the RLM still had supply concerns for both the DB600 and the Jumo 211, the latter being critical for the all important Stuka and latter Ju 88 in addition there was a policy of not producing two types of aircraft of the same type.
Ernst Udet allowed the Fw 187 to be built on the proviso of the Jumo 210 being used. He thereby nobbled it and missed a critical opportunity to develop a long range escort fighter and high speed reconnaissance aircraft.
Many years latter the exact same Fw 187 concept emerged in the form of the Focke-Wulf Ta 154 "Moskito", this time made of wood. This was a well run program but went wrong anyway. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
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Much documentation for the FW 187 was lost unfortunatly.
I also suspect if the procurement types want you to go away they will 'stitch' up the decision with a lot of negative, worst case data. A speed of 348mph with DB600 (or DB601) would still make the Fw 187 faster than the Me 109E1-E3. The DB601 was a carburated 900-960hp engine whereas the fuel injected DB601 came in a variety of variants: DB601A-0, DB601A-1, DB601Aa ranging in power from 990 to 1050, 1170 etc. There was even an DB601N which reached 1260 in some variants and DB601E which exceded 1300hp.
I would say the 348mph mentioned is a worst case scenario, with a second rate radiator system using an early DB600/601 variant and possibly with over specified armament.
The Tigercat and DeHaviland Hornet I think validate the Fw 187 concept as does in a way the P-38 and Ta 154. The problem with twin engined aircraft is that those doing the engineering, specification, procurment tended to go overboard in adding extra functions such as observers, rearward facing defensive armament, bombays and this then destroys the aircraft performance equality with single engined aircraft. If specified in a discipline manner a twin using the same engines as a single would seem to be intrinsically slightly faster, up to twice as heavily armed and to offer 75% more range while not loosing out in maneuverability or acceleration. The option of a second crew member to provide the critical work needed for opperating radar and navigation systems in night or bad weather is also there.
I would like to know, where are the intercooler intakes for the PW R-2800 on the tigercat?
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