Gallipoli (Dardanells) Turkey 1915 Photo Reconnaissance, original pictures

Discussion in 'World War I' started by Cookie bomb, Jun 16, 2014.

  1. Cookie bomb

    Cookie bomb Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Occupation:
    Education (Manchester College)
    Location:
    Scampton Lincolnshire
    #1 Cookie bomb, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
    I recently obtained an envelope with what was descried as WW2 photographs. Yes some were indeed WW2, however 8 of them clearly are not. After some internet research I have identified them as 1915 Gallipoli WW1. I have had them inspected by someone from the photography museum and he confirms them as original.
    Possibly taken by the RNAS from one of their six seaplanes. Flown out from the island of Tenedos. (Eyes of the RAF Roy Conyers Nesbit).
    The picture s are Kilitbahir Castle, Hamidiye Tabyasi, Seddulbahir Fort,Chocolate Hill, Ari Burnu and Anzac. I think!
    If anyone knows 1578591 LAC Lambert.F.W.RAF India Command I have another 40 WW2 pictures he or his family could be interested in.
    Please buy all means download the pictures for your own research, but not to use for financial gain. I would not like to find copy's on flebay. Enjoy!
    East of Ari Burnu.jpg Hamidiye.jpg Kilitbahir North.jpg Kilitbahir South.jpg Not Identified.jpg Sedulbahir.jpg South of Chocolate Hill.jpg

    The Anzac one is to large I will scan it again and post it later. Sorry. Done it as follows:

    Anzac.jpg Steriocards.jpg

    I have added a stereocard of the Zeppelin works at Friedrichshafen 21/06/1943 just for reference. This type of card was used for training at Bletchley Park.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  2. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia, US of A
    WOW!!! Aren't they fantastic!!! And such good quality too. Can I be your wingman next time you go to "obtain" something? :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,064
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Those are AWESOME! Thanks for sharing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    10,674
    Likes Received:
    676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Urban Design/Strategic Studies Tutor
    Location:
    Orange NSW
    #4 parsifal, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
    They are a great find, but as the resident skeptic, how would they take aerial photos of that quality in 1915. I expect only by balloon, if so, who was operating ballon recce units in the TO in 1915?

    One of the things that make me raise this question is the depth of the photography. Some of the images appear as having depth, which suggests that stereoscopic techniques were used. stereoscopy has been around for a while, but really didnt take off in aerial photography until after the war. it is quite possible that it was used, but it would have been cutting edge technology at the time....
     
  5. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia, US of A
    You need 2 images to create a stereo view. Pics #3 and #4 might have had sufficient overlap to apply stereoscopic techniques but the others are single images and so stereoscopy ain't gonna work.

    According to Wiki (yes, I know!) suggests stereoscopic aerial photography was in use as early as 1912 so I don't see any reason for it not to be used during WWI.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Torch

    Torch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,285
    Likes Received:
    217
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Colorado
    Great pics
     
  7. Cookie bomb

    Cookie bomb Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Occupation:
    Education (Manchester College)
    Location:
    Scampton Lincolnshire
    I am quoting directly from Eyes of The RAF ROY CONERS NESBIT page 48, Air reconnaissance and photography were carried out by the RNAS, which at the outset could muster only six seaplanes of dubious reliability, together with two aeroplanes which flew from the nearby island of Tenedos.
    The Curtis JN series was available in 1914, the Royal Aircraft Factory FE2a biplane 1915, the YE7, Vickers Fighting Biplane FB5, The Sapwith Babyfloatplane was available to the RNAS in 1915, and The Caudron Gill. Sorry no air balloons on this trip.
    The size of the pictures are (9cmx11cm) this would fit the wooden vertical A-type camera.
    I am no expert, I have just read from a book, however the pictures have been checked by someone from a museum of photography and he says they are the real thing.
    The depth of some of them is incredible and definitely not 2D or 3D this came later and did require 2 cameras.
    The one of the Seddulbahir Fort must have been taken before the Navy shot it up, it was very badly damaged and now very hard to find on Google earth.
    Thank you for your comments please keep them coming.
     
  8. Cookie bomb

    Cookie bomb Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Occupation:
    Education (Manchester College)
    Location:
    Scampton Lincolnshire
    You are very welcome to be my wingman any time. Lincolnshire is full of this type of thing.
     
  9. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    41,720
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Doctor
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Royal Deeside, UK
    Home Page:
    Great stuff!! Thanks a lot for sharing.

    Thought about what your plans are for them?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia, US of A
    I would suggest Pics #3 and #4 are almost certainly a stereo pair. They were taken at the same time of day (note the shadows just to photo south of the triangular fort). Use of imagery pairs like this to view in 3D was a well-known 19th century parlour pasttime but, as noted previously, teh same techniques had been applied to aerial imagery from 1912 onwards. Great, GREAT imagery...as an old-school photo interpreter, this stuff is just fantastic to my eyes!! :)
     
  11. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia, US of A
    Yeah...alas moving to Virginia over-extended my commute to your neck of the woods.
     
  12. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    10,674
    Likes Received:
    676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Urban Design/Strategic Studies Tutor
    Location:
    Orange NSW
    Im not disputing that they are legitimate, but the use of 3d photography only 3 years after its invention, on a secondary front of the war, is amazing and worth noting. It also does not invalidate the opinion that this type of photographic representation was rare until after the war. How many 3d photos of WWI have you seen. id venture a guess and say, like myself, not many
     
  13. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia, US of A
    #13 buffnut453, Jun 17, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
    Parsifal, stereoscopy had been known since the 19th century - it was well-tried parlour entertainment, indeed hand-held or larger sterescopic viewers were the TVs of the mid/late Victorian era. Check out this link for stereo images from the American Civil War. Applying steroscopic techniques to aerial photography is hardly "inventing" the capability.

    I'm struggling with your use of the term "3D photo" by which I presume you mean anaglyphs. That technique is not used for intelligence work because it requires additional processing of the imagery and takes longer to derive intelligence, whereas stereoscopy can be applied to any suitably-overlapping pair of 2D images. Stereoscopy is merely the aligning of 2 images (a stereo pair) such that the human eye is fooled into perceiving a 3D view. It's not the creation of some new image, merely a human perception of 2 existing 2D images. As already observed, pics #3 and #4 above look like a stereo pair to me.
     
  14. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    10,674
    Likes Received:
    676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Urban Design/Strategic Studies Tutor
    Location:
    Orange NSW
    I agree and knew that steroscopic photogrpahy had been around for a while, but as a form of military intell, it was very new. The British air services did not form the first heavier than air recon units until 1913, and lagged very badly in terms of the cameras they were usiing. The following article suggest that sterscopic capability was not available to the British (and americans) until after 1917.

    Aerial reconnaissance in World War I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So while it was far from being "invented", it was definately a new technique particulalry for the british. we are back where we started. Is it plausible for the British to be able to take these photos with the technology and expertise they possessed with less than a years existence for their recon arms?

    And therein lies the problem. The British dont seem to have the necessary technology and/or expertise, to do that, at least as a militarily efficient exercise, until after 1917. Im missing something here....obviously they did take this sequence, and one has to assume they were taken during the p[lanning stages of the operation (1914) but other sources are saying they dont posses that capability until later in the war.

    you still need the ability to take the photos in a specific sequaence and spacing, which the British dont seem to have possessed until later in the war.
     
  15. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    10,674
    Likes Received:
    676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Urban Design/Strategic Studies Tutor
    Location:
    Orange NSW
    whilst Im having some difficulty accepting that it was within the technical means of the british air service to provide such images, perhaps it wasnt the british at all that took the photos. France in 1914 had the most advanced recon elements in their air force, though they were overtaken quite early by the Germans later on. Its more plausible that these images are of French origin, though i dont have any information as to aircraft deployments for the French
     
  16. Cookie bomb

    Cookie bomb Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Occupation:
    Education (Manchester College)
    Location:
    Scampton Lincolnshire
    I don't know if this helps, the photographs were posted in 1961 from the RAF India Command W110. The numbering and place names are on the back in English.

    I have added the last picture above (Anzac) with a ww2 stereocard. Please look.
     
  17. Cookie bomb

    Cookie bomb Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Occupation:
    Education (Manchester College)
    Location:
    Scampton Lincolnshire
    I am not certain what to do with them as yet. I have sent the scans to The Gallipoli Association and as yet had no reply regarding the actual images. I have joined their forum so I can post them for all the members, however the forum has a glitch that will not let anyone add a new post. Under repair apparently.
     
  18. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,743
    Likes Received:
    439
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Engineer
    Location:
    Nelson
    On the images and their clarity. I've examined glass plate negatives from the Great War and looked at prints made from them and I have no reason not to believe that these were made by British aircraft as you claim, Cookie bomb. The British certainly did have the ability to produce images with such great clarity during the Great War and did so frequently throughout the war. Aerial recon evolved relatively quickly and the results were ground breaking, certainly over the Western Front, where the RFC and RNAS had a strong and capable reconnaissance presence. I've seen many prints from archival collections taken during the Great War, some of the trenches and the clarity of them match these easily.

    Of interest on the RNAS use of seaplanes for recon during the Dardanelles Campaign, a number of Royal Navy seaplane carrying aircraft were present during the campaign, including the seaplane carrier HMS Ark Royal and the seaplane tender HMS Ben-My-Chree, which carried Short 184 torpedo carriers, of which famously sunk Turkish steamers on three separate occasions, the first time torpedoes were fired from aircraft, including one fired from the surface of the water when the aircraft's engine suffered failure and the pilot had to alight on the water. Ben-My-Chree also carried Sopwith Schneider seaplanes. Ark Royal was off the coast of Gallipoli providing support for the ANZAC beachhead on 25 April (ANZAC Day in Australia and New Zealand) by using her seaplanes for spotting Turkish artillery batteries.

    The monitors of the Abercrombie Class, fitted with twin 14 in gun turrets were the very first naval vessels designed from the outset on the drawing board fitted with equipment for operating aircraft, hangars, cranes, workshops etc, whereas all other seaplane tenders, including the Ark Royal that was built on the hull of a freighter, were converted from their previous roles. Of the class of four ships, Abercrombie, Raglan and Roberts were sent to the Dardanelles and off the coast of Gallipoli for fire support and their aircraft, which had to be lowered away from the ship before the main armament could go into action, provided aerial spotting and reconnaissance. Both HM Ships Raglan and Roberts operated Short 184s during their careers, but Roberts had also a Short 166 and Sopwith Schneider at different times.

    The Briutish also had the tethered balloon ships Hector and Manica off Gallipoli also.

    It's also worth noting that No.3 Sqn RNAS was present over the Dardanelles and Gallipoli during that time, operating a mixed bag of land planes flying from Tenedos. This was the former Eastchurch Aeroplane Squadron led by Sqn Cdr Charles Rumney Samson. These aircraft carried out reconnaissance and bombing operations during the campaign, but were hampered by failing technology. Types included B.E.2cs, a Farman 20 and 27, a Maurice Farman Shorthorns, Sopwith Tabloids and Nieuport single seaters, to name a few.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Wildcat

    Wildcat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    375
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Workin' for the man....
    Location:
    South East Queensland
    • Like Like x 2
    • Bacon Bacon x 1
  20. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    10,674
    Likes Received:
    676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Urban Design/Strategic Studies Tutor
    Location:
    Orange NSW
    it sure does. thanks Andy. that is even different from the official history i might point out
     
Loading...

Share This Page