German Aircraft that could deliver The Bomb

[JEANBatten]

It's about weight Jean.

It's been speculated that Heisenberg's "incompetence" was deliberate. That he was actively, albeit quietly, disrupting and slowing any effort in Germany to develop atomic weapons. Which would be the only rational course he could really take once he couldn't really escape with his family.

Two observations. I suspect Jean is our corespondent who first advanced these seemingly pro-Nazi comments from earlier in the thread. Secondly, I think this has tread far enough into science fiction for the thread to be ended. The link Jean posted above seems to be the worst sort of tripe.

Yes I am aware of that theory, In my view once the Nazis lost the war he found it convenient to distance himself from the Nazi ethos. Many nuclear scientists held at Farm Hall were recorded speculating whether they could be tried for war crimes?
His efforts to get a nuclear pile to work were equally incompetent. Good thing he didn't work in North Korea?

 

[JEANBatten]

It's about weight Jean.

It's been speculated that Heisenberg's "incompetence" was deliberate. That he was actively, albeit quietly, disrupting and slowing any effort in Germany to develop atomic weapons. Which would be the only rational course he could really take once he couldn't really escape with his family.

Two observations. I suspect Jean is our corespondent who first advanced these seemingly pro-Nazi comments from earlier in the thread. Secondly, I think this has tread far enough into science fiction for the thread to be ended. The link Jean posted above seems to be the worst sort of tripe.

There is nothing pro-Nazi about my views or my politics. i suggest you stick to debating historical facts before trading personal attacks

 

[JEANBatten]

Hey JEANBatten,

No Deibner did not, no Schumann & Trinks did not, and there was no Operation Teacup.

Yes Schumann & Trinks did miniaturize nuclear weapons, the former was employed by the French to develop their nuclear weapons project

Operation Teapot - my error
Operation Teapot

Deibner,whilst ostensibly working for the West German nuclear laboratory taught the Americans how to shrink a 15kt Atomic bomb into a 280mm W9 artillery shell.

Otherwise perhaps you can explain why this nuclear blast was not caused by a 4 ton Mark IV bomb?
The M-65 cannon's nuclear warhead is based on exactly the same Z-PINCH warhead patented in WW2 by Schumann & Trinks

 

[JEANBatten]

Propellorhead, this:

Is 100% false.

The Ju390V1 made trial flights but never left Europe. Japan would have never allowed a trans-Asia flight because of Soviet territory over-flights putting their non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union in jeopardy.
Ju390V2 never made it to any operational condition before it was destroyed by Allied bombing.

The story of a mysterious Ju390 flying to North America first appeared in a 1955 article by Green with no sources or citations and the problem with this, is that the amount of fuel the Ju390 would have needed to make the round-trip voyage exceeded it's max. take-off weight limit. It literally could not do such a trip, it was physically impossible.

There was no third Ju390, just two and their actual flights and dispositions is heavily documented.

conflicting with your assertion: Evidence that the Ju390 V1 WAS parked derelict, stripped of propellers at Dessau in November 1944:

whilst meanwhile the Ju390 V2 was photographed at Prague in operational condition:

Test pilot Oberleutnant Eisermann recorded in his logbook that he flew the V2 prototype from Reichlin as late as February 1945

According to author Geoffrey Brooks who translated German archives FOR Manfred Griehl author of books such as Luftwaffe Over America.

Books by Manfred Greihl

the Ju390 was built in response to an RLM contract for three prototype aircraft. In email exchanges , Mr Brooks asserts that according to documents he had translated the Luftwaffe Quartermaster General paid Junkers for delivery of seven Ju390 production aircraft. I am sure you will dispute this but it is cited by a professional archive resercher from wartime records.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey JEANBatten,

The only Schumann involved in the US, UK, or French Atomic/Nuclear programs was involved in studying radiation effects of blasts on the surrounding environment, relative to its short and long term effects.

I suspect that you are getting your information from Manfred Griehl's fictionalized accounts of the Germany's war-time atomic program and the equally fictionalized contributions made by Schumann, Trinks, and Diebner after the war. If you are honestly mistaken, and honestly want to know the truth about this subject, please start doing some serious research. If you are as I and some of the others on this form suspect, a troll, please go away.

 

[GrauGeist]

I am sure you will dispute this but it is cited by a professional archive resercher from wartime records.

I appreciate how you "cover" your point by adding that last bit, however I would tend to go straight to the source.
First of all:
Ju390V1 (GH+UK) was modified from a Ju90 (V6 to be exact) and first flew in October 1943.
Ju390V2 (RC+DA) was modified from a Ju290 and (according to some accounts) first flew in September 1944.
That's all there were. Two.
Now the RLM may have paid for 7 but the contract was also cancelled that same month (June '44).

Now, on to what really happened.
According to Junker's chief test pilot, Hans Pancherz, Ju390V1 was flown to Dressau in December 1944 and destroyed to prevent capture by Allied forces.
You can read about this account as covered by Kössler and Ott.

Ju390V2, according to Professor Hertel, Junkers' technical director and chief designer, was never completed.
This was stated during an interview with the British after the war and according the Hans Pancherz, V2 never flew. Bill Gunston covers the interview in his publication.
Antony Kay, through his research, concluded that further development on V2 was discontinued because of the RLM mandate for all heavy bomber production and development cease to promote emergency fighter production.

So it seems the preponderance of professional researchers lean in my favor.

 

[Koopernic]

There have been threads on the Lancaster's ability to drop the Bomb. The Black Lancaster's were trained as a back up for the Bomb delivery. If Germany had developed a Bomb, what aircraft could have delivered a 5000 kg device?

We will assume a 10,000lb 4550kg bomb similar to little boy. As far as I can tell the largest bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe was a SC2500 2500kg (5500lbs) HE bomb. Probably physically as large as a little boy.

Here are the options, only aircraft actually built and used in missions:

1 Heinkel He 177A5 with either a modified bomb bay or carrying a little boy sized bomb externally with ease. The aircraft had an upper wing layout and there was nothing stopping a modification to allow the large littleboy bomb to be carried fully internally. The B29 itself had to be modified as well. In fact one He 177 was modified with a full length contagious bomb bay that could have carried little boy. This was part of a test program to develop a bomb bay capable of transonic speed release for the Ju 287 forward swept bomber test bed and its developments the EF131 and EF132. During the Baby Blitz raids on Britain in early 1944 the He 177 achieved an attrition rate lower than 6%.

The He 177A5/R2 reconnaissance version, stripped of much of its armament bar the tail guns could achieve 351mph. Since this would need to be a night attack this configuration with a a tail warning radar and a microwave scanner would make a good basis for penetration into the UK.

2 Junkers Ju 290A7. This powerful aircraft with 4 x 2000hp engines was well armed with twin 20mm tail guns a powered B24 liberator style turret had also been developed. It evolved from the 1936 Ju 89 bomber so could have had a B17 or He 111 style bomb bay between the wing spars. I'm guessing capable of fitting 4000kg (8800lbs) of bombs but probably nothing much larger than 1000kg/2200lbs. I'm simply guessing on the basis of the B17's 6000lb capacity and the Junkers had a larger wing chord with more room between the spars The Ju 290A7 would have had no problem carry 10,000lbs bomb externally either naked in the slipstream or within a paniers. Although the Ju 290 had been redesigned from bomber to transport role and back again by the time of the Ju 290A5 it had been designed to carry guided weapons such as Hs 293 and Fritz-X externally for its maritime reconnaissance bomber role. A more developed version the Ju290B with pressurisation and turbo charging for the BMW801 engines was planed. It would have had a very long and large bomb panier capable of carrying a large weapon like a little boy. The rear of the panier served as an excellent ventral gunners station and the front as well. It's BMW801TJ engines were designed for a good high speed cruise at 10,000m-11,0000m (33,000ft) or more.

More interestingly the Ju 290 as a transport retained the C130 Hercules style rear loading ramp or "Trappoklappe" that could be opened in flight. This had come in useful when successful in flight refuelling experiments took place in 1942/43 since the fuel hose reel could be fitted there. (The Luftwaffe used a probe and drogue type arrangement though the fuel was passed up to the receiver) . The "Trappoklpappe" loading ramp had been designed to release parachute supplies and paratroopers but as the Germans had developed high speed drogue ribbon parachutes it might be possible to extract the little boy MOAB style from the rear loading ramp. Loads the Germans had tested with large ribbon parachutes include a Do 335 sized aircraft, Me 163 (to slow these aircraft down for pilot emergency egress, they chose ejection seats instead) and a gliders and Ar 234 jets for quick short landings. The bomb would probably fall at 220ft/sec 70m/sec about what a parachute mine bomb fell at (a parachutist falls at 25ft/sec or 7m/sec.

This also allows about 30-60 extra seconds for the aircraft to escape the atomic blast since the bomb falls slower and also stops its forward motion almost immediately.

A loaded Ju 290 could operate effectively at speed to over 20,000ft, a little more than a Lancaster, however the planed Ju 290B with its turbocharged BMW801TJ engines about 11,000m

3 Junkers Ju 390. This aircraft was a stretch for the Ju 290 with extra wing span and a pair of extra engines and wing section inserted. This had a remarkable effect on performance.
a/ Speed increased from 278mph to 322mph at just over 20,000ft.
b/ Range doubled to nearly 6500 miles. Enough for a mission from Berlin to New York plus over half way back. Best to New York was 80% of the way back.
c/ wing loading was 60% that of the B29, this gave a remarkable take-off run of less than 500m at MTOW. With 2000hp engines it had a higher power to weight ration than the B29

At 20,500ft the Ju 390 was not much slower than a B29 (322mph versus 348mph) but if equipped with the turbo charged BMW801TJ the difference would fade to insignificance above 25,000ft as drag of the bigger fuselage became insignificant.

So the Luftwaffe had completely viable options for delivery of a nuclear explosive not only to the UK, USSR (he 177A5) but also the USA (Ju 390). The Ju 390 would require one in flight refuelling in route to its US target to ensure it could fly the return leg but clearly a ditching near a u-boat was a viable option.


****************
In terms of the German ability to develop an atomic weapon probably by late 1946.

Heisenberg had calculated the critical mass and when asked to explain how big he said it was about the size of a pineapple in 1939 which is about 15-20 kg or Uranium. That is correct. German army ordinance (likely Klaus Diebner) had also estimated 8-20 kg which is closer than the Maude committee to the actual value..

The Germans had several problems in their nuclear program:
1 They had far fewer resources than the allies and cooperation with the Japanese was difficult.
2. They were being bombed, this destroyed no less than 3 of their uranium centrifuges on 3 occasions.
3. They had gained control of Norway's Hydroelectric electrolysis system which was used to manufacture ammonia using electrolysis (fertiliser, explosives, chemicals). Electrolytic cells tend to concentrate the heavier deuteron molecules. This was both a blessing and curse as the head of German Army Ordinance, Schumann, having control of a 'free' source of heavy water declined to invest in the industrlisation of alternative methods such as fractional distillation using waste heat (which was done in Canada). There was a fear that the columns would be attacked. They did develop the Geib–Spevack (GS) process and orders were placed but it was too late. Espionage and bombing constrained German heavy water supplies even though they knew they could produce a self sustaining reactor.
4. The original German civilian uranium association (made up of interested parties) had made much progress and had great insights into nuclear reactors, moderators, control etc but was displaced when the German military became involved and side lined the association with its own group known as the second uranium association. One of the results was that when the Germans had tried graphite as a moderator and found it wanting a Physicist called both had identified the contaminants and suggested how it should be removed. That message never got to Heisenberg. Hence the Germans remained dependant on heavy water as a moderator from Norwegian sources.
5 When Armaments minister Albert Speer approached Heisenberg and von Weissacker if a bomb could be built in time to influence the war. Heisenberg said no. He was right as the US weapon was only ready and tested 6 months after the European war was over. Had Heisenberg said "maybe but its 50:50" Speer would have supplied Reichs Mark 500 million instead of 46 million. Several others physicists such as Deibner would have said yes. That money certainty would have solved the heavy water problem.
6 The Germans had a number of achievements. apart from discovering Uranium's fissionable properties by 1942 their "Leipzig Spheres" were the first subcritical rectors to produce more neutrons (5:10 times) than they consumed. These were concentric hollow spheres of uranium with heavy water in between and a radium/boron neutron source in the centre. A scaling to about 2.5m diameter would have been critical as calculated by Klara Doppel.
7 They did manage to enrich Uranium by uranium centrifuge (producing about 2.5 grams enriched to 6%) and some more by a a device known as a uranium sluice.
8 In the closing stages of the war they did have a subcritical lattice reactor at Haigerloch that tested as planned and proved that an upscaling of only 50% would have produced a critical reactor. (there was insufficient heavy water to do this. The core of the reactor is little bigger than a 200L drum.)

After the war Heisenberg was interred at Farm Hall in Britain. Here in 'dinner table discussions' that were bugged he calculated critical mass at about 100kg (way more than his pineapple claim in 1940) which would produce a 20 ton weapon but did say this was without temper (neutron reflector) when he heard of the Hiroshima bomb he quickly corrected himself.

It should be noted that after the war if you wanted to work in academia or the public service in Germany you had to have a certificate of being denazified. Heisenberg was one of the ways one of the people who was needed to grant this in science so unfortunately many German physicists had to shut up, agree with Heisenberg in order to be able to work. It's clear that Diebner, Hatek etc wanted to build a bomb. Heisenberg reduced their effort to a research program to produce a reactor.


There were perhaps 2-3 other options. The He 177B was a He 177A with 4 independent DB603 engines borrowed from the He 219. It worked very well though its power was a little too much for the tail fin area and range was no better than the He 177A. It could have been produced but it was decided to develop the He 277 instead as it would have the range needed to attack allied shipping. It was a fuselage stretch with an enlarged wing, new cockpit, separate engines. There was also the He 274 (which flew) and the Ju 488 (which almost flew). The Ju 488 had a service ceiling of 48500ft with BMW801TJ engines so it would have been beyond allied interception and safe from any atomic blast.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Starting to heat up a lil in here. Keep it civil gents.

 

[nuuumannn]

conflicting with your assertion: Evidence that the Ju390 V1 WAS parked derelict, stripped of propellers at Dessau in November 1944:

whilst meanwhile the Ju390 V2 was photographed at Prague in operational condition:

It's the same aeroplane taken at different times.

Antony Kay, through his research, concluded that further development on V2 was discontinued because of the RLM mandate for all heavy bomber production and development cease to promote emergency fighter production.

Cooo-rrect. The 390 V2 was never completed and never flew, according to Kay.

According to researcher Dan Sharp, a British Intelligence report produced in August 1944 highlights the Ju 390 and states that it is said to have made a flight to New York - not actually confirming it, from Mont de Marsan in France, home to Ju 290s, that did regularly make long range flights, as mentioned earlier, but surprisingly, no survivors from Mont de Marsan ever recall that such a flight ever took place, nor did anyone actually see this aircraft, which is not surprising really. If it did happen, someone at the base would have recorded it.

The report has a note in it - Sharp has probably accessed the report from the AIR files in The National Archive at Kew - that states by Junkers Technical Director Heinrich Hertel, who expressly stated, and I quote "...only one of these was ever made." A further report cited by Sharp states that the British thought the Ju390 V1 was "...built from the extended fuselage of the Ju 90 V6 fitted with new wings, six BMW 801G-2 engines and four main undercarriage legs. Larger trapezoidal fins were added too, in place of the Ju 90's oval ones. Coded GH-UK, it was extensively tested until November 1944 when it was decommissioned at the Junkers factory at Dessau [which was captured by the Americans on 21 April 1945 as noted within the same source by the author]. In April 1945 it was set on fire and destroyed to prevent it from falling into the hands of the Allies. A second purpose-built Ju 390, the V2, was never completed."

 

[Koopernic]

Hey JEANBatten,

The only Schumann involved in the US, UK, or French Atomic/Nuclear programs was involved in studying radiation effects of blasts on the surrounding environment, relative to its short and long term effects.

I suspect that you are getting your information from Manfred Griehl's fictionalized accounts of the Germany's war-time atomic program and the equally fictionalized contributions made by Schumann, Trinks, and Diebner after the war. If you are honestly mistaken, and honestly want to know the truth about this subject, please start doing some serious research. If you are as I and some of the others on this form suspect, a troll, please go away.

Have you ever read Manfred Griehl? I doubt it. He's a pretty straight forward aviation historian and none of his books are other worldly or remotely scifi. I find he makes a few technical mistakes but but considering the paucity of information he had in dealing with primary documents at the time he is pretty good. Klaus Diebner was a physicist. He worked for the HWA (German Army Ordinance) He was an expert in hollow charge weapons and developed some of the best of the war. Diebner also configurated the lattice reactor that Heisenberg and von Weisacker tested in Hairgerloch in the closing months of the war. The subcritical tests conformed that as calculated a volumetric scaling up of the reactor by 1.5 would produced a self sustaining reaction. Canadian researchers sent to investigate the German computational methods as part of the ALSOS mission concluded that the Germans knew how to calculate criticality for a reactor. They said the methods were often somewhat cruder but that they worked and that they were n some cases more elegant. Erich Schumann was the physicist who headed the HWA, he had little interest in nuclear research and his disinterest created conflicts with Diebner. Diebner was a proud National Socialist but he knew what he was doing. Same with Paul Hartek. These men were viciously attached (i think that's the right word, not as bady as Bergius though) after the war and they had to shut up. The story we hear is the allied side or Heisenberg. It also has to be remembered ALL of German physicist shut up and deemphasised bomb research because in 1960 they were allowed to resume reactor research and it was absolutely essential to not talk about atomic weapons.

 

[Koopernic]

conflicting with your assertion: Evidence that the Ju390 V1 WAS parked derelict, stripped of propellers at Dessau in November 1944:

View attachment 598872




whilst meanwhile the Ju390 V2 was photographed at Prague in operational condition:
View attachment 598871

Test pilot Oberleutnant Eisermann recorded in his logbook that he flew the V2 prototype from Reichlin as late as February 1945

According to author Geoffrey Brooks who translated German archives FOR Manfred Griehl author of books such as Luftwaffe Over America.

Books by Manfred Greihl

the Ju390 was built in response to an RLM contract for three prototype aircraft. In email exchanges , Mr Brooks asserts that according to documents he had translated the Luftwaffe Quartermaster General paid Junkers for delivery of seven Ju390 production aircraft. I am sure you will dispute this but it is cited by a professional archive resercher from wartime records.

It's not impossible to imagine that the National Socialist were running a 'dark program' with the Ju 390. There are two aspects to 'dark programs'. 1 Outright secrecy and 2 a false misleading paper trail. What would the motivation be? A lot of people needed to escape and the Ju 390 had the range to evacuate high ranking nazi officials but this had to be done in total secrecy. Not only did the existence of the transports have to be secret they had to remain secret after they had been used to fly to say Argentina or Uruguay. There are plenty of people that would keep their mouth shut.

 

[Tkdog]

But taking off in a large plane from Germany and flying relatively slowly (you have a long way to go) is the absolute worst way to try and escape a war zone. Your enemy, and even the Swiss, have air superiority in all directions. It's a great way to get shot down.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey Koopernic,

re Diebner

My statement was ". . . and Diebner after the war.

 

[pbehn]

Since COBOLT 60 has nothing to do with the Nazi boosted fission weapon your little tidbit of information relating to your limited training in use of X-rays has no relevance

My training wasn't limited, I was a qualified radiographer and used to supervise a team of radiographers, It was good enough to inform me that Cobalt 60 is a gamma not an "X Ray" source and all of what you call fissile materials release ionising radiation. I have had enough of being talked down to by people who don't know the difference between an X Ray and a gamma source, which means you havnt passed first base in this topic.. Oh and BTW what was the yield of the bomb and how much GAMMA radiation did it emit.

 

[JEANBatten]

Have you ever read Manfred Griehl? I doubt it. He's a pretty straight forward aviation historian and none of his books are other worldly or remotely scifi. I find he makes a few technical mistakes but but considering the paucity of information he had in dealing with primary documents at the time he is pretty good. Klaus Diebner was a physicist. He worked for the HWA (German Army Ordinance) He was an expert in hollow charge weapons and developed some of the best of the war. Diebner also configurated the lattice reactor that Heisenberg and von Weisacker tested in Hairgerloch in the closing months of the war. The subcritical tests conformed that as calculated a volumetric scaling up of the reactor by 1.5 would produced a self sustaining reaction. Canadian researchers sent to investigate the German computational methods as part of the ALSOS mission concluded that the Germans knew how to calculate criticality for a reactor. They said the methods were often somewhat cruder but that they worked and that they were n some cases more elegant. Erich Schumann was the physicist who headed the HWA, he had little interest in nuclear research and his disinterest created conflicts with Diebner. Diebner was a proud National Socialist but he knew what he was doing. Same with Paul Hartek. These men were viciously attached (i think that's the right word, not as bady as Bergius though) after the war and they had to shut up. The story we hear is the allied side or Heisenberg. It also has to be remembered ALL of German physicist shut up and deemphasised bomb research because in 1960 they were allowed to resume reactor research and it was absolutely essential to not talk about atomic weapons.

Precisely so, I am citing to you from his researcher/ translator Geoffrey Brook. I am not quoting science fiction. You are merely demonstrating your brittle inability to accept or process new information that you have to denounce the information or messenger to reconcile your attitude. . you are inaccurately referring to the MONSANTO report filed as G-371:

 

[ThomasP]

Hey Koopernic,

re:"Have you ever read Manfred Griehl?"

Yes, I have read several of his books, primarily his earlier works ('German Night Fighters', 'German Jets', 'German Heavy Bombers, 'Airwar Over the Atlantic', maybe others). Although there were detail inaccuracies (which is to be expected in any such work) the overall accuracy was quite good. That is why I was surprised when I read one of his later works 'Luftwaffe over America'. Which is when I realized that he had begun his venture into la-la land some time between that book and his earlier works.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey JEANBatten,

Are you saying that the information you are posting did not come through Griehl, but that it instead came directly from Brooks?

Incidentally, the information that the Germans had been working on a reactor, and had gotten about 90% of the theoretical physics and methodology worked out before the end of the war, was common knowledge among the scientific community and readily available back in the early-1950s. The specific information and data on how to do it was of course classified.

 

[xylstra]

There have been threads on the Lancaster's ability to drop the Bomb. The Black Lancaster's were trained as a back up for the Bomb delivery. If Germany had developed a Bomb, what aircraft could have delivered a 5000 kg device?

You guys lack any imagination!! The 'quick and dirty' option is the JUNKERS JU-88 'Mistel' Composite. An ultimate 'stand-off' delivery weapon. Even terminal guidance doesn't have to be sophisticated. Fixed altitude setting for optimal air-burst and a timer for detonation.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You guys lack any imagination!! The 'quick and dirty' option is the JUNKERS JU-88 'Mistel' Composite. An ultimate 'stand-off' delivery weapon. Even terminal guidance doesn't have to be sophisticated. Fixed altitude setting for optimal air-burst and a timer for detonation.

There is no lack of imagination within this thread!

 

[GrauGeist]

Anything within range of a Ju88 is pretty much nuking yourself at the same time.

The jet-stream travels west to east, so any targets in France or England and you'll be enjoying the fallout, too.