German Aircraft that could deliver The Bomb

[msxyz]

The main issue with Germans detonating a bomb would be that someone should have seen the giant fireball and mushroom cloud (which, even for small devices like those employed in ww2, should have been visible over 100km away). it's simply too big to convince witnesses to 'forget about it, it's just an ammo depot hit by a raid'.

The only intriguing mystery for me is the nature of the Uranium aboard U-505. The official story is that it was just some refined metallic uranium, however it was transported into individual ceramic (or glass) gold plated small containers (a precaution which is employed usually for high purity, precious or reactive substances in chemistry).

 

[ThomasP]

Hey msxyz,

Processed uranium ore contains various uranium oxides. The processes involved in the manufacture of refined ore (sometimes called "yellow cake") will produce various oxides. Modern 'yellow cake' contains mainly U3O8 (triuranium octoxide), UO3 (uranium trioxide), and UO2 (uranium doxide). The early processing methods used in the WWII era were different than the modern ones, and some of them produced significantly larger amounts of UO2.

All uranium oxides burn under varying conditions depending on the type of oxide.

Uranium dioxide is actually pyrophoric at room temperature if it is in a fine enough powder. There are various conditions under which it may be ignited, including indirectly through exposure to salt water. It is also reactive (to a greater or lesser degree) to many common substances, such as carbon dioxide and monoxide gases, and metallic substances such as aluminum and iron, just for a few examples. Because of this, the material is often transported in containers that reduce or eliminate the chance of chemical reactions. Sometimes the uranium oxide is mixed with other materials and cast into blanks that help prevent exposure to problematic materials. This is particularly true when the uranium compound is to be used for lab work - you do not want any odd materials introduced to the test that are not accounted for, or that can not be easily refined out of/removed from the uranium oxide. Since you can control what materials you mix with the uranium oxide when you make the casting, you know what you have to do to remove them.

This may be the case re U-234, if the stories of the exotic containers are true.

PS There have been "a number" of uranium oxide fueled fires in various laboratories and uranium processing facilities over the last 80 years.

 

[msxyz]

Hey msxyz,

Processed uranium ore contains various uranium oxides. The processes involved in the manufacture of refined ore (sometimes called "yellow cake") will produce various oxides. Modern 'yellow cake' contains mainly U3O8 (triuranium octoxide), UO3 (uranium trioxide), and UO2 (uranium doxide). The early processing methods used in the WWII era were different than the modern ones, and some of them produced significantly larger amounts of UO2.

All uranium oxides burn under varying conditions depending on the type of oxide.

Uranium dioxide is actually pyrophoric at room temperature if it is in a fine enough powder. There are various conditions under which it may be ignited, including indirectly through exposure to salt water. It is also reactive (to a greater or lesser degree) to many common substances, such as carbon dioxide and monoxide gases, and metallic substances such as aluminum and iron, just for a few examples. Because of this, the material is often transported in containers that reduce or eliminate the chance of chemical reactions. Sometimes the uranium oxide is mixed with other materials and cast into blanks that help prevent exposure to problematic materials. This is particularly true when the uranium compound is to be used for lab work - you do not want any odd materials introduced to the test that are not accounted for, or that can not be easily refined out of/removed from the uranium oxide. Since you can control what materials you mix with the uranium oxide when you make the casting, you know what you have to do to remove them.

This may be the case re U-505, if the stories of the exotic containers are true.

PS There have been "a number" of uranium oxide fueled fires in various laboratories and uranium processing facilities over the last 80 years.

That's a sensible explanation. I remember reading that Uranium and some of its compounds are highly pyrophoric. As for the exotic containers, I remember seeing a picture of one of them a few years ago, though I don't remember the source and when it was taken. Considering the highly classified nature of the mission and the subject, I bet most of the documents are still off limits and only a few of historical interests has been released.

BTW, On youtube there are a couple of videos about 'fizzles' (that is sub-optimal nuclear explosions with very low yield) Some of these 'fizzles' were deliberate, others were meant to test 'new' methods of bomb building that resulted in an un expected failure. Could Germany have produced something like this? Chances are very slim because even the most crude nuclear device needs about 20% enriched Uranium and would be huge. Far as I know from literature, attempts at making efficient devices with low enriched Uranium (like using Uranium Deuteride), resulted in too little bangs to be useful.

The one in this video:

...apparently generated enough energy worth 200 tons of TNT. In this case, neutrons and fallout would be the biggest killer.

 

[rinkol]

a 1000kg gadget would not be ready until the late 50's. Assume Little Boy class, 5000kg. Perhaps a U-boat delivery off shore was the only option

One of the things that did the Northrop flying wings in concerned the inability of the bomb bay to carry a nuclear weapon - at the time, they were big and heavy.

 

[GrauGeist]

One of the things that did the Northrop flying wings in concerned the inability of the bomb bay to carry a nuclear weapon - at the time, they were big and heavy.

There was more to the story of Northrop's flying wings.

As far as delivering atom bombs, it could. It had a designed combat range of over 1,600 miles carrying 10,000 pounds (it's max. bomb load was 16,000).

Regarding Atom bombs, at the time (between 1947 and 1950), the U.S. had the:

Mark I
Length: 10 feet
Diameter: 2 feet, 4 inches
Weight: 9,700 pounds

Mark III
Length: 10 feet, 8 inches
Diameter: 5 feet
Weight: 10,300 pounds

Mark IV
Length: 10 feet, 8 inches
Diameter: 5 feet
Weight: 10,900 pounds

 

[chipieal]

Do not take this as gospel. But I have read in several articles, that Hitler did not put any faith in The atomic bomb. Maybe I am wrong, and this is strictly my opinion, I think when Hitler was gassed, it left him with a horror of so called Doomsday weapons.

 

[Graeme]

One of the things that did the Northrop flying wings in concerned the inability of the bomb bay to carry a nuclear weapon - at the time, they were big and heavy.

Some info here by us!

B-35 Flying Wing bomb bays

I am looking for the dimensions of the bomb bays in the B-35 bomber. Several years ago I found a diagram on the web with the info, but I can't seem to find it again. Does anyone have this information?

ww2aircraft.net

 

[Graeme]

Do not take this as gospel. But I have read in several articles, that Hitler did not put any faith in The atomic bomb. Maybe I am wrong, and this is strictly my opinion, I think when Hitler was gassed, it left him with a horror of so called Doomsday weapons.

According to the web...Churchill intervened and "warned" Adolf off ...

 

[PStickney]

Hey msxyz,

Processed uranium ore contains various uranium oxides. The processes involved in the manufacture of refined ore (sometimes called "yellow cake") will produce various oxides. Modern 'yellow cake' contains mainly U3O8 (triuranium octoxide), UO3 (uranium trioxide), and UO2 (uranium doxide). The early processing methods used in the WWII era were different than the modern ones, and some of them produced significantly larger amounts of UO2.

All uranium oxides burn under varying conditions depending on the type of oxide.

Uranium dioxide is actually pyrophoric at room temperature if it is in a fine enough powder. There are various conditions under which it may be ignited, including indirectly through exposure to salt water. It is also reactive (to a greater or lesser degree) to many common substances, such as carbon dioxide and monoxide gases, and metallic substances such as aluminum and iron, just for a few examples. Because of this, the material is often transported in containers that reduce or eliminate the chance of chemical reactions. Sometimes the uranium oxide is mixed with other materials and cast into blanks that help prevent exposure to problematic materials. This is particularly true when the uranium compound is to be used for lab work - you do not want any odd materials introduced to the test that are not accounted for, or that can not be easily refined out of/removed from the uranium oxide. Since you can control what materials you mix with the uranium oxide when you make the casting, you know what you have to do to remove them.

This may be the case re U-505, if the stories of the exotic containers are true.

PS There have been "a number" of uranium oxide fueled fires in various laboratories and uranium processing facilities over the last 80 years.

There was no Uranium on any form in U-505 - a Type IX boat, captured at sea in 1944. This may be conflation with U-234 a type X Minelayer which, in May, 1945, was tasked with carrying technical documentation, equipment examples, some raw materials, 10 German Military and technical experts, and 2 Japanese Naval Officers. As a minelayer, the boat had compartments outside the pressure hull for the mine load, which were used to hold pressure-tight containers carrying the cargo. Upon recveiving word that Germany had surrendered, and all sumbmarines at sea were to turn themselves in to Allied forces, U-234 radioed that she was headed for Halifax, NS, but her captain had the actual intent to head for Norfold, VA, thinking that the Americans would not intern the crew, but immediately repatriate them. The 2 Japanese Officers committed suicide, and, when U-234 was determined to not be on course for Halifax, it was intercepted by 2 U.S. Destroyers and diverted to Portsmouth Navy Yard, Portsmouth NH, (A major Submarine construction yard). There, the crew was interned, and the contents unloaded, including 540 kg of Uranium Oxide (Yellowcake), in steel cylinders with gold-plated interiors (Given the chemical reactivity of UO2 and UO3, and its pyrophoric nature), not surprising).
The crew who unloaded the cargo containers were told that the contents of the cylinders was Platinum, and it was placed under the control of the Manhattan District. Note that 540 Kg of U02 would likely yield about 2.5-3 kg of U-235 - about 1/10th of what would be required for a weapon.
(I knew one of the Yard Crew who participated in the unloading of the cargo.)

 

[msxyz]

There was no Uranium on any form in U-505 - a Type IX boat, captured at sea in 1944. This may be conflation with U-234 a type X Minelayer which, in May, 1945, was tasked with carrying technical documentation, equipment examples, some raw materials, 10 German Military and technical experts, and 2 Japanese Naval Officers.

My mistake. You're right. It was u-234 I wrote that comment before the morning daily dose of caffeine

 

[GrauGeist]

U-234 was carrying 1,200 pounds of Uranium Oxide.

That's a fairly substantial amount of Uranium.

"Little Boy" (Mark I) used 140 pounds of enriched Uranium.

 

[Acheron]

AFAIK, in term of pure scientific progress, Japan might have been more advanced than the Germans. IIRC, when Hiroshima happened, Japanese scientists quickly figured out what happened, their German counterparts when informed only then started to wonder if maybe an atomic bomb didn't need several tons of fissile material as they had believed.

I would also argue that the Uranium on U-234 heavily suggests that Germany was nowhere near building an atomic bomb. If they had been, surely they would have horded any and all and especially enriched Uranium for themselves to build a bomb and not send it towards their allies about who in all honesty, they couldn't care less.

 

[msxyz]

U-234 was carrying 1,200 pounds of Uranium Oxide.

That's a fairly substantial amount of Uranium.

"Little Boy" (Mark I) used 140 pounds of enriched Uranium.

Persistent rumours say that the Uranium in there was somehow enriched (normal Uranium contain about 0.6-0.7% of 'good' isotopes for fission use, enriched Uranium goes from about 3% used in many old power stations to 20% of modern high efficiency reactors and up to 80-95% of bombs and small fast reactors employed in subs).

The Uranium in Little boy was not all of the same 'quality'. About 1/3rd was enriched to 80-90%, the remainder was only 50%. Hence the low efficiency. Non fissionable uranium is detrimental to the efficiency of an atomic bomb in many ways, not only because it doesn't undergo fission but also because it causes premature start of the chain reaction. In layman's terms, the longer you can keep together a critical mass of fissionable material, the more efficient it gets. If the reaction starts too early, the core and the bomb will simply melt away (or rather, evaporate!) before enough energy is produced. That's in essence a 'Fizzle': an A-bomb that goes off too early producing maybe 2-3% of the energy it would be capable of.

 

[Peter Gunn]

According to the web...Churchill intervened and "warned" Adolf off ...



View attachment 652979

O.M.G.

Where do people come up with this stuff?

 

[PStickney]

U-234 was carrying 1,200 pounds of Uranium Oxide.

That's a fairly substantial amount of Uranium.

"Little Boy" (Mark I) used 140 pounds of enriched Uranium.

The Yellowcake in U-234 was Standard Issue Natural Uranium Oxide - 99.274% (+/-) U238, 0.72% U-235 (The Good Stuff), and traces of the other 4 isotopes (Including, wait for it... U-234) To use it in a weapon, the Uranium would have to be enriched up to about 90-95% U235 - assuming 100% recovery (Which wasn't going to happen), that's about 8 lbs - a bit less than 4 kilos. Even if they started processing it at Oak Ridge immediately, it would have taken many months before it could add to the U235 stockpile for Mk I (Little Boy) bombs. It's worth noting that in July 1945, there was enough U-235 enriched for 1 Mk 1, (Which is why there was no test in the U.S. - we were pretty sure it would work, and no schedule for use of a second Mk I. It's not impossible that the natural U235 concentration could be higher, but it's very unlikely. Way back in Earth's history, there were deposits of Uranium with higher levels of U235 in them (Some locations in the African Rift Valley), but billions of years ago, due to water collecting in the deposits, became natural water-moderated nuclear reactors, burning up the U235.

 

[PStickney]

Persistent rumours say that the Uranium in there was somehow enriched (normal Uranium contain about 0.6-0.7% of 'good' isotopes for fission use, enriched Uranium goes from about 3% used in many old power stations to 20% of modern high efficiency reactors and up to 80-95% of bombs and small fast reactors employed in subs).

The Uranium in Little boy was not all of the same 'quality'. About 1/3rd was enriched to 80-90%, the remainder was only 50%. Hence the low efficiency. Non fissionable uranium is detrimental to the efficiency of an atomic bomb in many ways, not only because it doesn't undergo fission but also because it causes premature start of the chain reaction. In layman's terms, the longer you can keep together a critical mass of fissionable material, the more efficient it gets. If the reaction starts too early, the core and the bomb will simply melt away (or rather, evaporate!) before enough energy is produced. That's in essence a 'Fizzle': an A-bomb that goes off too early producing maybe 2-3% of the energy it would be capable of.

Minor nit - the trend these days is to run thermal reactors (Making heat for, say, steam to generate electricity) on lower enrichment levels, including some that run on essentially natural uranium. (The Canadian CANDU). This lowers fuel costs, reduces waste, and reduces the possibility of weapons proliferation. Very small high density reactors, like a Submarine power plant, or a spacecraft reactor (As used on Soviet Radar Ocean Recon sats) use more highly enriched fuel, although the current U.S. Boats are going with a less-enriched fuel.

 

[PStickney]

AFAIK, in term of pure scientific progress, Japan might have been more advanced than the Germans. IIRC, when Hiroshima happened, Japanese scientists quickly figured out what happened, their German counterparts when informed only then started to wonder if maybe an atomic bomb didn't need several tons of fissile material as they had believed.

I would also argue that the Uranium on U-234 heavily suggests that Germany was nowhere near building an atomic bomb. If they had been, surely they would have horded any and all and especially enriched Uranium for themselves to build a bomb and not send it towards their allies about who in all honesty, they couldn't care less.

They also wouldn't have stored and carried it they way that they did, since there would be a non-zero chance of either the load being configured, or it shifting during transit, to start spontaneously reacting.

 

[pbehn]

O.M.G.

Where do people come up with this stuff?

Wouldnt warning Adolf be an admission that you were making your own? They come up with it on web sites that are determined to make Churchill as bad as Adolf.

 

[PStickney]

AFAIK, in term of pure scientific progress, Japan might have been more advanced than the Germans. IIRC, when Hiroshima happened, Japanese scientists quickly figured out what happened, their German counterparts when informed only then started to wonder if maybe an atomic bomb didn't need several tons of fissile material as they had believed.

I would also argue that the Uranium on U-234 heavily suggests that Germany was nowhere near building an atomic bomb. If they had been, surely they would have horded any and all and especially enriched Uranium for themselves to build a bomb and not send it towards their allies about who in all honesty, they couldn't care less.

If the Germans enriched any uranium, it was laboratory quantities (As in maybe a couple of grams). Even reactor scale enrichment requires a very large industrial infrastructure, lots and lots of electricity, cooling water, and skilled manpower. If you know what to look for, and have reconnaissance cover over the area, you can't hide it. (No Luftwaffe over Tennessee or Eastern Washington State) The Germans had none of the positives.
The Japanese were working from a different standard - since they had the evidence, they were able to determine _what_ had happened, and weren't, at that point, as concerned with how. The Germans were trying to see if they could figure out how to implement their theories of how a bomb could be made to work.

 

[Acheron]

The Japanese were working from a different standard - since they had the evidence, they were able to determine _what_ had happened, and weren't, at that point, as concerned with how. The Germans were trying to see if they could figure out how to implement their theories of how a bomb could be made to work.

Actually, the story of how the Japanese learnt of Hiroshima might be surprisingly interesting. Sounds easy enough, Hiroshima is in Japan after all. But IIRC, according to an Internet (=dubious) source, the bomb had destroyed all communications out of Hiroshima. So the Japanese send an airplane to check the city out. Again, I don't know if it is true, but if so, having to send an aircraft on recon to find out what happened to one of your own cities is something right out of a horror story.