German commando attack on the US, Canada Alaska

[Kruska]

In the end I do not think it would have accomplished anything.

Blowing up the Hoover Damn would hurt a small portion of America. The US's resources were spread out all over the United States.

A "terrorist" attack would have put fear into the people, but in the end it would have only rallied the US people even more and given them more resolve to end the war and more than likely "punish" Germany on an even greater scale.

I would agree with D.A.I.G. on this.

Instead Adolf should have send Brezels and Beer to the USA since 1933, reminding the US about its historical ties (e.g. Steuben) and population heritage to Germany, the common issues between Nazis and KKK or the general affiliation of the southern states to Nazi Germany.

Who knows, but there might have been a chance to disrupt the US – England affiliation, rather then ignorantly declaring war against the largest economic power in the world.

Regards
Kruska

 

[eddie_brunette]

Interesting...mmmmm

Leave the commandos and concentrate on the Heavy Water and FW200 project

 

[johnbr]

Some years ago they did find a German on maned weather station off Labrador.It was found out after the war that the Uboat men would go on fur lo
in east coast provinces.Because they would find ticket Studs in dead Uboat crew for the theater and movies.

 

[Freebird]

The US industrial machine was so vast, theres nothing the commando team could have done to materially effect the war.

I would disagree.

But I do think Cmmando raids would of tied up alot of the war machine..America had a bigger war machine ...Harder to hurt then the Germans Machine...

It might of diverted resources to prevent further attacks.

This is exactly the point.

I don't think a commando attack on the US, anywhere, would've done Germany any good. Keep in mind that the country was really unified after Pearl Harbor. Even the Isolationists were all for attacking and gettin some back. A commando attack would not have done any good....raids that small, in a country that has no "front line borders" anywhere near it, would not have diverted any significant amount of troops from critical front line positions.

I would disagree with that. Remember that the US has only about 1 division available after Pearl Harbour, {other than those troops already committed, and those training} There was a significant panic after Pearl Harbour, Eisenhower writes that the War Dept. was deluged with requests from dozens of west coast cities for troops aircraft to protect them. Imagine how much more strident those requests would be if there were some actual attacks? And if they were ignored and some commando attacks were later committed, the Isolationist opposition would be calling for more troops to protect "America First", and worry about overseas deployments later. The congress was more united after Pearl, but there were still serious disagreements over war strategy.
[/QUOTE]

Here is a thought for you all - How about a "frogman" style attack by commandos similar to the Italians that hit British Battleships in Alexandria other ships in Gibraltar.

These two ports were major British Naval bases, at wartime, vigilantly guarded by patrols that were expecting just these type of attacks.

Suppose that the Italians sent some of these teams, with gear, to be inserted at night by German U-boats near the US East coast ports.

The USA was at peace, they did not expect to be attacked, and were much less vigilant than British ports {which were in a war zone}

Compare the defence {or lack therof} of Pearl harbour which was threatened by its location, and which had been warned of iminant hostilities by Japan.

Is there any reason to think that Norfolk or the other Eastern ports would be even as prepared as Pearl Harbour?

 

[syscom3]

The US had several divisions available available on the eve of Pearl Harbor. You dont need big armoured units backed by artillery to protect key structures.

As for industrial targets? The most vulnerable targets were the transmission lines coming from the dams in the NW states, where the majority of raw aluminum was made.

But remember, the commando teams could only damage, not destroy. Damaged things can be repaired. And as events proved during the war, the US showed it could rapidly repair or build anything. Drop a bridge into a river? No problem. A new one will be built within a few months.

The only thing a commando group could do is inflict terror, and you can only do that for so long. And like I said, the US industrial capacity and infrastructure was so vast and redundant, nothing of key importance could be knocked out for long.

 

[RabidAlien]

I guess it all depends on "when" this commando raid(s) would take place. If Hitler had gotten together with Yamamoto and coordinated the attacks, I think the Isolationists would've had a larger following, instead of everybody abandoning them and flocking to the recruiters. But we did have several divisions available (not to mention countless pissed-off police, fire, Boy Scouts, and every redneck hunter/poacher in the nation), and unless there was a full-scale German invasion, they would've taken the commando raiders fairly quickly. I was assuming this would be taking place in '43 or '44, maybe as a last-ditch strategy by Hitler in early '45. Even ignoring Hitler's mania for a moment, there would realistically be nothing for Germany to gain by poking the US with what would amount to a fuzzy Q-tip. Sure. Some damage would be done. But nowhere near enough to really matter.

 

[Soren]

How was the US running at full speed after Pearl? The US war effort grew stronger and faster with each passing year.

Yes ofcourse it did. As the war progessed more factories, more workers etc etc were assembled, hence the higher output pr. year. (The German industry ouput aslso increased pr. year)

Still this doesn't mean the US wasn't doing all it could, it was but it had to build up the industrial output over time just like any other nation. You can't just start off producing thousands of a/c from one week to the other, you need the factories, materials workers to do the job first.

This whole theory that the US industry wasn't even producing 75% of what it could is extremely far fetched.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The US was able to "industrialize for war" rather quickly. That is fact.

A commando raid on one small locations is not going to stop the US from doing so.

 

[parsifal]

Yes ofcourse it did. As the war progessed more factories, more workers etc etc were assembled, hence the higher output pr. year. (The German industry ouput aslso increased pr. year)

It was actually a changeover of factories from domestic to miltary production, and even at the height of US mobilzation, US production is reliably estimated to have never exceeded 75% of its maximum warmaking potential


Still this doesn't mean the US wasn't doing all it could, it was but it had to build up the industrial output over time just like any other nation. You can't just start off producing thousands of a/c from one week to the other, you need the factories, materials workers to do the job first.

This whole theory that the US industry wasn't even producing 75% of what it could is extremely far fetched.

What are you basing that conclusion on. Read Overy, the leading postwar economic analysis on the war before making claims like that. Surrogate evidence can be found that the US was not even close to working to full potential from the fact that the US never even introduced a true scheme of rationing. They couldnt even utilize all the war production that they did enlist. At the time, US industrial capacity exceeded 45% of total world production (I have even read claims that it was a high as 62%, but I dont accept that figure).

US war production would have been completely unnaffected by any sort of commando raid that involved a couple of hundred men. it would have been a complete waste of German expertise, and would have handed the numerous formations then under training in the US with the opportunity for a live firing excercise basically

 

[Soren]

Parsifal,

I for one don't believe that only 75% of the US warmaking potential was used, it would mkae no sense to have such an attitude in war, esp. a two front war. Also the various advertizements for buying war bons, donating all things of metal etc etc, also keeps me from believing it. But let us just agree to disagree about the warmaking potential utilized by the US.

Now as for the German commando attack affecting the US industrial output, I agree that it really couldn't to any really maeningful extent, but it has never been about that either. The purpose of the attack would be to cause terror within the US, Canadian possibly the Alaskan public and last but not least set up a multitude of weather stations radio transmitters.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Now as for the German commando attack affecting the US industrial output, I agree that it really couldn't to any really maeningful extent, but it has never been about that either. The purpose of the attack would be to cause terror within the US, Canadian possibly the Alaskan public and last but not least set up a multitude of weather stations radio transmitters.

What would that do?

Nothing. All it would do is hurt Germany even more. The people would have been more angry and would have more resolve to fight the war and win it. You have seen how the people were after Pearl.

No weather stations and radio transmitters would last. If the Germans could set them up the US could take them out just as easy.

 

[Soren]

What would that do?

Nothing. All it would do is hurt Germany even more. The people would have been more angry and would have more resolve to fight the war and win it. You have seen how the people were after Pearl.

It would scare them witless and force the US government to spend huge amounts of money on securing its coasts, cities, towns, villages and so on, basically everyone would want protection.

No weather stations and radio transmitters would last. If the Germans could set them up the US could take them out just as easy.

That isn't true as the German put up several weatherstations on US soil and they all functioned beautifully, and none were found during the war. Some were found after the war and some have been found recently, still functioning...

German weatherstation:

From Uboat.net (Read the entire article, it's very interesting):
uboat.net - U-boat Operations - Weather station Kurt erected in Labrador in 1943

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Interesting about the weather stations but also look where they were....

Remember the Japanese occupied part of Alaska and although their removal resulted in one of the bloodiest battles of WW2 for the most part they could of just stayed put and their impact on the war would of still been negliable, in fact I think it was a bad move for the US to retake Kiska and Dutch Harbor when they did. All the US had to do is wait out the occupying Japanese forces and the ultimate battle to remove them would of been a lot less bloody, but again it's easy to look at the situation in retrospect as we now know how the war actually played out.

 

[syscom3]

Soren, we discussed the US industrial production in another thread.

But to remind you ...

1) The factories were in place and had been underutilized for a decade or more.
2) The US had been in a naval and AF buildup since 1940
3) The US GNP was still growing even in summer 1945.
4) As weapons and material (including airplanes) were being standardized throughout the services, even more output was being planned.
5) With the naval buildup completed by 1945, millions of tons of steel was going to be available for other uses.
6) By late 1944, the housing and transport issues for the factory workers was being solved, so even higher efficencies was being planned.

 

[pbfoot]

It would scare them witless and force the US government to spend huge amounts of money on securing its coasts, cities, towns, villages and so on, basically everyone would want protection.



That isn't true as the German put up several weatherstations on US soil and they all functioned beautifully, and none were found during the war. Some were found after the war and some have been found recently, still functioning...

German weatherstation:

From Uboat.net (Read the entire article, it's very interesting):
uboat.net - U-boat Operations - Weather station Kurt erected in Labrador in 1943

have ever been to Labrador , its the size of Germany and has a population under 50000 today , I know when the GAF came over they were amazed at how isolated it was . I lived in Goose Bay and I believe the next town was 400nm away

 

[Njaco]

IMHO I think you would have to narrow it down a bit as far as a commando objective. Such as where they were building Norden bombsights. Wouldn't that raise a little hell? Something like "Eisenhammer"?

I thought some commando types were dropped off in Florida and made their way to New York and other cities before being captured. One of them turned on the others and was the only one not executed.

 

[RabidAlien]

There were a few spies that were dropped off on the Eastern Seaboard, all of whom were caught or turned themselves in. I don't know that any of them "turned state's evidence" or not, but they were all caught. In a country that was willing to put thousands and thousands of American citizens of direct Japanese descent into concentration camps, strangers were generally looked at rather closely. As for hitting the Norden bombsight plant...there were more than one, and I don't think Germany would've wanted to disrupt that anyway. It wouldn't have stopped the production of the bombsight, and would only have clued the US in to the fact that Germany knew where it was made, knew the significance of it, and regarded it as so inferior that it wasn't worth stealing. It would've been much smarter to sneak in to the plant some night (difficult when they were running round-the-clock), photostat some copies of the designs, and sneak out again. A successful op would've netted Germany the bombsight without anyone being the wiser, which would've greatly increased the accuracy of German bombing. Why carpet-bomb London, when you can plant a planeload on Churchill's doorstep?

Then again....nobody ever accused Hitler of thinking logically and progressively. He probably would've ordered a plant or two blown up, then staffed his bomber crews with psychics and mediums. *g*

 

[Haztoys]

Do we really need to call the Japaneses Camps "concentration camps" ...I do not think they were starved and worked to death and gas as the Nazi's did to the Jew... They were interned and keep against there will...But concentration camp bring up pictures of die staved people in a mass grave... Or it just me I guess..??? .......... ...

My Mom worked at the one in Bishop California..She drove a truck to and from LA with supplies

 

[syscom3]

Do we really need to call the Japaneses Camps "concentration camps" ...I do not think they were starved and worked to death and gas as the Nazi's did to the Jew... They were interned and keep against there will...But concentration camp bring up pictures of die staved people in a mass grave... Or it just me I guess..??? .......... ...

My Mom worked at the one in Bishop California..She drove a truck to and from LA with supplies

I went to visit that camp last summer. Its now a national monument due to the historical significance of it.

Best way to call it is a "detention camp".

 

[Haztoys]

I went to visit that camp last summer. Its now a national monument due to the historical significance of it.

Best way to call it is a "detention camp".

I to have been there last year...When the camps came up a few years ago .. And the news were calling it a concentration camp..My Mom roller her eyes ...And said " They ate better were warmer and there roof did not leak then how she lived during the war"...And she also did not see a reason to keep them in the camps and they were very caring people...She did say that there was a very deep hate for the Japanese people from the American public...And felt they were probably safer there then in there homes with all the upset Americans ...

Sorry to get this off tread ...Back to were this was going...