German commando attack on the US, Canada Alaska

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It would scare them witless and force the US government to spend huge amounts of money on securing its coasts, cities, towns, villages and so on, basically everyone would want protection.

For a few days, Soren. You underestimate the US people. 2 weeks later no would have cared. It would not have effected the US resolve at all and the money that would have been allocated would have been negligable.

That isn't true as the German put up several weatherstations on US soil and they all functioned beautifully, and none were found during the war. Some were found after the war and some have been found recently, still functioning...

Operations - Weather station Kurt erected in Labrador in 1943[/url]

Soren look at the locations of those things. They had 0 impact on the war. If they had been placed any closer to the real mainland of the US, they would have been destroyed rather quickly.

 

[Freebird]

The US had several divisions available available on the eve of Pearl Harbor.

Which divisions? I believe that only the 1st was available, the Marines were earmarked for Pacific operations, while the rest of the Army div's were still training.

I guess it all depends on "when" this commando raid(s) would take place. If Hitler had gotten together with Yamamoto and coordinated the attacks, I think the Isolationists would've had a larger following, instead of everybody abandoning them and flocking to the recruiters. I was assuming this would be taking place in '43 or '44, maybe as a last-ditch strategy by Hitler in early '45.

By 1943 the writing is on the wall, it's too late to have any chance to affect the outcome of the war. This type of operation must be done in the first 6 - 8months or so to have any real benefit

US war production would have been completely unnaffected by any sort of commando raid that involved a couple of hundred men. [/QUOTE]

Agreed, the purpose of the raids would not be to affect production.

It would have been a complete waste of German expertise.

I would disagree. An argument along the same lines could be made that operation "Mincemeat" achieved no benefit because it did not destroy even 1 Geman aircraft or soldier. However the deception that it fostered was a huge help to the Allies, as the Axis deployed 1,000's of troops airpower to Sardinia, that were needed in Sicily.

Does anybody have thoughts on my previous question?

Here is a thought for you all - How about "frogman" style commando attacks by the Germans or Italians similar to those that hit British Battleships in Alexandria other ships in Gibraltar?

These two ports were major British Naval bases, at wartime, vigilantly guarded by patrols that were expecting just these type of attacks. Yet the Italians were still able to achieve their missions.

Suppose that the Italians sent some of these teams, with gear, to be inserted at night by German U-boats near the US East coast ports prior to "Pearl Harbour". Then perhaps the night after the PH attack, they could strike at the USN bases

The USA was at peace, they did not expect to be attacked, and were much less vigilant than British ports {which were in a war zone}

Compare the defence {or lack therof} of Pearl Harbour, which was threatened by its location, and which had been warned of imminant hostilities with Japan.

Is there any reason to think that Norfolk or the other Eastern US ports would be even as well guarded or prepared as Pearl Harbour?

 

[Glider]

I admit that this is one of the whackiest ideas I have heard for a while. Listing the problems
1) The Germans had no recc information,
2) No spies to assist with planning or logistics
3) No method of transporting the men and equipment that would be needed to the USA assuming that you need more than 4-5 men and backpacks
4) No method of transport when (if) they arrive
5) Every chance of being detected by Enigma code breaking before they arrive.
6) Little chance of doing any damage if they pass items 1-5
7) Every chance of handing the Allies a PR goldmine
8) Every chance of binding the USA together in the fight against the Axis forces.

 

[Soren]

Glider, you're wrong on many of your points:

1.) The Enigma wasn't completely broken in 42 43, infact there was a period were it was fully kryptic.
2.) The men could easily be transported by U-boat, the Germans set off spies in the US quite a few times, not to mention a multitude of weatherstations etc etc. And a Type IXD could carry tons of equipment and men, easily carrying about 25 men beyond the crew
3.) When they arrive they can commandeer a vehicle if needed.
4.) Civilian clothes is brought along to give the ability to blend in when needed.
5.) Spies could be set off long BEFORE the raid, gathering information beneficial to the succes of the raid.

__________________________________________

Guys,

Here is a possible hypothetical scenario:

In early 1942 the planning of the raid has been completed, and it goes as follows:

3 weeks prior to the commando attack automated weatherstations radiotransmitters are set up on the coasts closest to the target areas by U-boats. During the following weeks intel is gathered on the weather conditions and the various US radio stations are monitored as-well as any radio communication in the area.

The purpose of this is to make sure that beyond the weather being good at the time of the landing, and perhas knowing about certain events taking place in the area, it is also made sure that no'one has gotten hint of anything, perhaps discovering one of the weather radio stations, in which case the operation can be called off.

To further safe guard against the cover being blown German spies are set off a week before the raid, there mission being to gather intel much the same way as the radio weather stations while at the same time making sure they aren't uncovered. The spies will also gather the crucial information on the landscape terrain of the target area, having ready detailed maps at the arrival of the commandos. The spies can also acquire transportation to the commandos as they land, picking them up in a purchased truck or truck(s).

Now as to the goal of the operation itself, well let's say 25 commandos are dropped off at each landing zone (During the night ofcourse). Now after having landed and reached the target area time has pretty much run out to carry out any further tasks that day, therefore the men will plan then rest until next nightfall.

Now as to the attack itself, well we can think about that but there are few possible things they could do:

They could sneak in at night, place some explosives, and heck perhaps even break into a bank, acquiring valuables. While that is done another team would bust the local police station, taking out the personnel (Or taking them hostage). All the while five other men are cutting telephone lines as well as electricity to the town. If this was done to a town it would be helpless until the next day.

However remember no'one is suggesting any of this will be a walk in the park, many things could go wrong, and it often only takes one thing to go wrong for the rest to follow suit. So if the mission is to have any chance of success it is crucial that all details regarding the operation stay secret right up till the night of the landing itself. Regardless to say the right planning coupled with highly skilled spies commandos are absolutely essential to the success of the operation.

Now as for all of you who are skeptical, think for a moment, how would you carry out a similar operation, remember there is always some way to do it.

 

[Juha]

Soren
what is your definition for "quite a few times" in this time, I can recall one, maybe two cases of Germans landing spies into USA.

Now according to U-Boat net only one automatic weather station was landed in North America and that in KANADA, not in USA.

And for ex. weather station near the landing point only gives info what the weather is at the moment, it doesn't predict what the weather will be on next day or next week. And even the possibility to got current weather info from the station would not be sure, because, from U-boat.net. "Reports indicate that the weather station sent out normal transmissions for a few days, but then there was apparent jamming on that frequency." That station would not have helped much on planning a raid. etc

Juha

 

[Glider]

Glider, you're wrong on many of your points:

1.) The Enigma wasn't completely broken in 42 43, infact there was a period were it was fully kryptic.
2.) The men could easily be transported by U-boat, the Germans set off spies in the US quite a few times, not to mention a multitude of weatherstations etc etc. And a Type IXD could carry tons of equipment and men, easily carrying about 25 men beyond the crew
3.) When they arrive they can commandeer a vehicle if needed.
4.) Civilian clothes is brought along to give the ability to blend in when needed.
5.) Spies could be set off long BEFORE the raid, gathering information beneficial to the succes of the raid.

__________________________________________

1) It was however broken to a degree and even if not cracked plots were often made and an indication of the tracks made.
2) Taking your examples, spies were in groups of 4 no more, The multitude of weather stations were not that numerous and I note with interest it took 48 hours to unload the U Boat at anchor and of course they didn't didn't weigh a huge amount. As for carrying 25 men over and above the crew, it never happened and I doubt that it could.
3) 'Obtaining a Lorry' how many men are we talking about, how many trucks and no one will notice!!
4) Civilian clothes, so we are talking spies and no one will notice men carrying packs talking with a foriegn accent, lord knows how many miles in land.
5) Spies, Germany didn't have any of any note in the USA and once war was declared they were rounded up. For instance, the only country Germany had a decent spy network in the Americas was in Brazil not exactly convenient for the USA. In case your interested, eight weeks after Germany declared war on the USA Brazil severed relations with Germany and eight weeks after that all their spies in Brazil had been rounded up. Some of these fled to Chile and Argentina but these were soon captured as the USA kept tabs on them and leant on the authorities.

 

[Njaco]

Freebird, I'll take a stab at it.

U-boats did make it off the coast of New Jersey rather close so some type of froggy commando attack could have been made up the Delaware to the Philadelphia and Camden boat yards. Now I have no idea about the defenses or how shallow the Delaware is but maybe we could start there. Those two yards were very active during the war. And as they sit half-way between DC and NY, I'm sure some type of over reactive panic would ensue.

As an added bonus, there was a German POW camp in the southern portion of the state, I believe around Vineland and the first USAAF airfield built during the war that trained pilots on the P-47 was at Millville. So a coordinated attack against ship yards and airfield along with letting loose some prisoners. Oh I feel like Ian Flemming!

 

[RabidAlien]

I went to visit that camp last summer. Its now a national monument due to the historical significance of it.

Best way to call it is a "detention camp".

Agreed. It was late last night after a crappy day at work. That's all my poor, overworked braincell could supply at the time. *g* Yep. Detention camp, or internment camp. Most assuredly, no matter what its called, they were NOT one of the USofA's most shining moments.

 

[RabidAlien]

Hmmmm...not sure how most of those POW's would react to being "freed". Consider that they were usually being worked in the fields around the camps, being paid, being fed three squares a day. They had access to privileges even few of the upper-eschelon in Berlin had access to. Early in the war, when the outcome was still up for grabs, sure, the majority of them would probably have raised a ruckus, then gotten shot as an escapee or been re-captured. Late '43, and definitely from mid-'44 on, most of the Axis soliders who could think knew there was very little hope of winning, and only fought on because the Fatherland was threatened....and the SS was standing about fifteen yards behind them. So, once again, depending on when said raid would take place, there probably wouldn't be much support from the POW camps. A few die-hards, yes. But didn't a good percentage of the POW's interred in the US and Canada apply to stay when the war was over, instead of being repatriated to a devestated country?

 

[Soren]

It would take place in early to mid 1942 Rabid.

Now contrary to what Glider believes a Uboat could carry many men besides the dedicated crew, a Type IX could easily haul along 25 extra men, and even more if the number of torpedoes carried were cut down. On top of that the Type IX had a cargo hold on the top deck, usually used for extra torps or mail, food (Incase of milkcow), equipment, looted goods etc etc. This cargo hold could ofcourse therefore be used to hold all the equipment needed for the raid.

Oh and I don't know where Glider got the idea from that it took 25 men 48 hours to get out of the sub, into rubber boat and head for shore - guess they must have been really sloooow according to Glider.

 

[Njaco]

Does anyone know what the closest a U-boat has come to the US shoreline?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe there were U-Boots within site of New York City. They surfaced just outside of the harbor and they could see the lights of the city.

 

[timshatz]

Njaco, the Delaware is pretty shallow for the most part. About 40 foot in the channel with plenty of shoals. Be impossible to run a sub up there underwater. On top of the hazards to navigation, there would be a ton of traffic (especially during war time). Somebody would run it over.

I think a sub managed to lay some mines in the mouth of the Ches in early 42. Same thing for the sea lanes into NYC. One also got into the St. Lawrence Seaway in 42. There were also a bunch of them shooting up tanker traffic off Diamond Shoals down off Cape Hatterus (sp?). Also, close enough to see the lights on the following cities:

Miami
Jacksonville (made a landing there with spies)
Charleston
Wilmington NC
Atlantic City
N. Jersey
NYC

Those are the ones I know of. Seems there was a big problem with the local mayors not wanting to black out their cities because of worries over the tourist trade. Finally, after losing 400 ships in 6 months, it became manditory.

Here's a link to the wiki on it:

Second Happy Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Decent book on the whole thing is "Operation Drumbeat". Rough english translation for the German Sub attacks on the East Coast. Link to book on Amazon. Ok book. Read it a while ago.

Operation Drumbeat, Germany's U-Boat Attacks Along the American Coast in World War II - Yahoo! Shopping

 

[Glider]

It would take place in early to mid 1942 Rabid.

Now contrary to what Glider believes a Uboat could carry many men besides the dedicated crew, a Type IX could easily haul along 25 extra men, and even more if the number of torpedoes carried were cut down. On top of that the Type IX had a cargo hold on the top deck, usually used for extra torps or mail, food (Incase of milkcow), equipment, looted goods etc etc. This cargo hold could ofcourse therefore be used to hold all the equipment needed for the raid.

Oh and I don't know where Glider got the idea from that it took 25 men 48 hours to get out of the sub, into rubber boat and head for shore - guess they must have been really sloooow according to Glider.

Soren
The 48 hours to unload the U Boat for the weather station came from your posting I quote
On October 22 U-537 arrived at Martin Bay at the northern tip of Labrador. For the next 48 hours U-537 lay at anchor while the crew manhandled the 220-pound canisters, along with a tripod and mast, into rubber boats and then onshore.

Re the carrying of 25 extra people in a Type IX I don't believe it. I haven't been in a Type IX but I have been in an Oberon Class submarine which is of a similar size and the idea is just not on.

The only submarines that I know that carried raiding parties were three American submarines that weighed an extra 1000 tons and were originally designed as minelayers. The minespaces were free to be used as troop carriers.

 

[Haztoys]

On U-boats getting places... I could be wrong on the river or the whole info..But "I was thinking" that a U-boat got up the Saint Lawrence river and wreaked its ruder ..And its some were in a museum up in that part of the world ... Flame me and shoot me down if I'm keeping rumors going ... Ring a bell ...??

I'm sure with the nuts of the U-boat captains they were sniffing around the US coast line more then we knew...

 

[pbfoot]

On U-boats getting places... I could be wrong on the river or the whole info..But "I was thinking" that a U-boat got up the Saint Lawrence river and wreaked its ruder ..And its some were in a museum up in that part of the world ... Flame me and shoot me down if I'm keeping rumors going ... Ring a bell ...??

I'm sure with the nuts of the U-boat captains they were sniffing around the US coast line more then we knew...

There actually was a a battle up here its called the Battle of the St Lawrence there was a number of U boat patrols in the St Lawrence one almost got to Quebec City
this link will explain it better then I but 42 attacks were made 22 ships were sunk including 3 naval vessels
The Battle of the Gulf of St. Lawrence - Veterans Affairs Canada

 

[syscom3]

Soren, the commando's will only be able to haul a couple of hundred pounds of explosive at any given time.

Just exactly what can they do to materially effect the war?

Blow up a dam? Nope.

Bring down a bridge? Possibly. But how will that effect production?

Take out a power plant? No.

Take out transmission lines? Yes, but for how long?

 

[pbfoot]

Soren, the commando's will only be able to haul a couple of hundred pounds of explosive at any given time.





Take out a power plant? No.

QUOTE]I would think you could take out a power plant at least here you could if you knew the infrastructure and the locks on the Mississippi or the what is now called the St Lawrence Seaway. They were guarded 24/7 . certain bridges could cause havoc and the same places were also guarded after 9/11

 

[syscom3]

But theres the issue of damage vs destruction. The amount of explosives the commando's could use was always limited.

Also, if something critical was wrecked, the US and Canadians would repair it so fast, the interruption in production wouldn't be noticed.

 

[pbfoot]

In the 1940's if you knocked the out the hydro electric power (possibly largest in the world)plants you'd have no abrasives i believe this area was the hub for abrasives . No abrasives no machining