German commando attack on the US, Canada Alaska

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by Soren, May 26, 2008.

  1. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Parsifal do you even understand what you quote ??!

    You have quoted how U-boats meant for long patrols were crammed with food, fuel, ammunition torpedoes, knowing that they'd be out there a VERY long time, sometimes just laying in wait. However what you don't seem to understand at all is that the goal of the operation not is to go on a long patrol but to transport men from Europe to America. Is that really so hard to understand ? It's no freakin wonder you critize everything I write when you don't even care to read it! Or is it that you just don't know what the difference is and that U-boats were differently equipped depending on what type of task they were to perform??

    Now Glider unknowingly demonstrated just how much room a SINGLE torpedo takes up. Take out 10 torpedoes and you've got yourself a very nice amount of room.

    Another picture to show just how much room a single Torpedo took up: (Take away that torp and you've got an entire extra row of bed space)
    [​IMG]

    One more:
    [​IMG]

    Now remember that this (Forward torpedo room) is but ONE of the many rooms used as bedrooms by the crew, and even on long patrols where the boat was stuffed with extra food, fuel, ammunition torpedoes there always was space for all 55 to 63 dedicated crewmembers. So a short tour de tour like the suggested operation would definitely allow an extra 30 men to come along, seeing that only a fraction of the food, ammunition torpedoes would be needed. Also keep in mind the Type IXD is bigger inside than the boats pictured above.


    Adler,

    Have you tried travelling by foot in Alaska, or heck even Austria, Norway or Switzerland ? It can be done, I know it can, esp. by men trained to travel, fight and survive in mountainous terrain. It also depends a lot on how long you need to go.

    Anyhow I don't even know why you guys think the men would have to travel many miles by foot over the mountains to reach the target area, as at both suggested target places they could be set off right next to it. So why are we even discussing this ???



    If you want to critize something atleast read understand it properly first.
     
  2. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    This is the type of terrain the GebirgsJägers trained, lived, travelled fought in during the war:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The GebirgsJägers
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    A good read: 6518 - Gebirgsjager - German Mountain Infantry

    And today they carry on the tradition:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Heck even during the first world war there were men especially trained to live, travel fight in mountainous terrain, such as the German alpine troops fighting the Italians. (Below: Austrian Mountain corps):
    [​IMG]
     
  3. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Soren do not even try to compare the Alps and Western Europe to the climate and terrain of Alaska. Again before you make a comparison. Go to to both. I have...
     
  4. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    I didn't serve on them. The RN were trying to get people to volunteer for the Submarine service. Our branch which was the fixed wing airframes and engines was being cut and we went on board 'Odin' for three days for a taster.
    I stayed with the FAA, but your right there were only four of us but there is no doubt that 25 is impossible.
     
  5. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    Soren has missed the point. Those torpedo spaces are empty and the bunks are already in them and are occupied. You want to put 25 men in the room that you see.
    I don't know how they stored the spare torps on a Type IX but in a Type VII most of the torpedo's were on the deck with a false floor on to on which people lived and worked. Taking the torpedo's out simply lowered the floor.

    As for the photo's of the troops, can I ask if your taking the mules with you?:lol:
     
  6. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Nope, but you have a habbit of twisting what I say. You need to read before you respond. I don't want to stuff 25 or 30 men into one room, they'd be spread over the entire sub. Furthermore a Type IXD is a good deal larger inside than the Uboats pictured above.

    You noticed that too ?? Wow! Well then Glider, don't you find it funny that despite being stuffed with the absolute max amount of food, ammo torps (Which means those bunks were totally inaccessable) 63 men were still able to live inside that boat for months ?? And yet still you're trying to suggest that for a transport operation the boat was unable to hold an extra 25 to 30 men.

    Eerr, you do know that these weren't used over 80% of the time, right ? Unless they're special mules able to climb cliffs ofcourse ;)
     
  7. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    So Adler, what is the major difference between Alaskan terrain and climate compared to the climate terrain of the Austrian, Swiss, French Norwegian mountain range that would make it alien country to try and survive in by comparison ? And remember this is refering to the climate terrain around the target area (Both places accessable via rivers)

    Alaska.com | Weather climate

    The climate of Southcentral Alaska -- the region encompassing Anchorage, Seward, Homer, Prince William Sound and Wrangell-St. Elias -- is mild, at least by Alaska standards. The temperatures are moderated by the Gulf of Alaska, and the truly cold winds of the north are often blocked by the Alaska and Talkeetna mountain ranges.
    Southcentral Alaska doesn't get as much rain as Southeast Alaska, but it gets a lot more snow. On the other hand, it has a lot more clear days.

    When moisture-laden air blowing off the Gulf of Alaska meets the chilly Alaska, Chugach, Talkeetna, Wrangell and St. Elias ranges, precipitation happens. In July, August and September, especially along the Gulf coast, rain falls. In the winter, there's lots of snow. This is often most apparent along Prince William Sound. Valdez, for example, averages 303 inches -- 25 feet -- a year, and Whittier gets 250 inches.

    Although so much snow requires shoveling and plowing in town, it's beloved by skiers and snowmachiners. Snow in the mountains feeds the glaciers and the myriad streams that salmon come home to. Snow and rain also nurture the lush coastal forests.

    Blocked from the Gulf by mountains, Anchorage's official measuring station at the international airport gets only 70 inches.

    The snow near sea level generally melts away by early May. When termination dust -- the first coating of mountaintop snow -- falls in late August or early September, Alaskans know winter isn't far away.

    Summer sunlight in Anchorage lasts 19.5 hours at the June solstice. At the winter solstice, daylight lasts 5.5 hours.


    [​IMG]
     
  8. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    If you want people to understand you properly, try making your posts clearer, instead of leaving innuendo and unclear messages there.
     
  9. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    I am twisting nothing. You are the one who kept saying that by taking the torpedo's out you would have room for the men, so I concentrated on the torpedo rooms. So now they are spread out all over the boat, your change not mine. Tell me who are you going to move them to, remembering that the crew aready hot bunk.
    By the way the size of the Submarine doesn't automatically mean a lot more space. British Nuclear Subs still hot bunked until the latest class due to lack of space

    I take it that you can support these assumptions. Bunks were not made inaccessable, they were vital for the health and safety of the crew.


    Just thinking of your supermen from the raid in Australia.

    By the way, I am still waiting for your supporting information IRO the Russians getting their Intel from the western allies. Any information re the source welcome.
     
  10. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    there is a way for a commando raid to be launched against the US, but it does not involve U-Boats.

    Instead of basically killing your people by cramming them into a naval verion of the "Black Hole Of calcutta", why not just send your people to spain where they would then be embarked on a "neutral" merchantman. A lot easier, with a lot more space in it.....sure there is a risk that the ship might get pulled over by customs, or the neutrality patrols...you might use the commadoes as make believe crew, and just hope that all the hardware you are packing is not detected, but at least this approach is feasible. The germans used that approach in Norway, and whilst a US adventure is, IMO infintely more difficult thana little jump across the Kattegat, at least you have a plausible base of operations and means of transport, instead of trying to make something that is unworkable, work
     
  11. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Again you haven't even been following attention.

    Spies would be set off a week or two prior to the attack to monitor and find the proper landing area along with automated weather radio stations.

    And as for your suggested 10 days of looking through a telescope to see wether the coast is clear, that's just completely ridiculous Parsifal, with or without spies doing all the preliminary work. And then on top of that you're suggesting that it takes NINE days to get the 25 men out of the boat, into rafts and head for shore ??? Parsifal how did you ever come up with that ?

    The only one making silly proposals here is you Parsifal, and you're ignorance to the fact that hundreds of boats were on patrols lasting months just proves that.

    Ever heard of milkcows ??

    Again you demonstrate your complete lack of knowledge on the subject of German U-boats and how they operated.

    Let me ask you again: Have you ever heard of Milkcows Parsifal ? Ever wondered how German subs were able to patrol the US Canadian coasts for weeks, attack and then return all the way home again ??

    Fact is what I'm suggesting doesn't even come close to exceeding either the space or endurance parameters of the suggested boats.

    So again Parsifal, study the subject before making blanket statements about it.

    You've got to be kidding me man! You're just desperately grasping for straws now Parsifal! You obviously don't know what sarcasm or figure of speach is!

    Parsifal when I say: Used as bedrooms by the crew it is the same as when saying: The men used the three as a toilet or "The men used their rifles as clobs"

    But then ofcourse comes to the scene an extreme nitpicker and starts ranting: "Rifles certainly aint clubs! They're firearms!"

    Give me a break!
     
  12. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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    The Alps thats a pimple
    the Rocky Mountains extend the Rockies are 4000 miles long and thats one range here are some more in the Pacific West
    Kenai Mountains, southern Alaska
    Chugach Mountains, southern Alaska
    Talkeetna Mountains, southern Alaska
    Yukon Ranges, Alaska, Yukon
    Wrangell Mountains, southern Alaska
    Saint Elias Mountains, southern Alaska, southwestern Yukon, far northwestern British Columbia
    Alsek Ranges
    Fairweather Range
    Takshanuk Mountains, Haines, Alaska-area. Between Chilkat and Chilkoot watersheds
    Coast Mountains
    Boundary Ranges, southeastern Alaska, northwestern British Columbia
    Cheja Range (southeast of Taku/Whiting Rivers)
    Chechidla Range
    Chutine Icefield
    Adam Mountains
    Ashington Range
    Burniston Range
    Dezadeash Range
    Florence Range
    Halleck Range
    Juneau Icefield
    Kahpo Mountains
    Kakuhan Range
    Lincoln Mountains
    Longview Range
    Peabody Mountains
    Rousseau Range
    Seward Mountains
    Snowslide Range
    Spectrum Range
    Stikine Icecap
    Kitimat Ranges BC North Coast
    Pacific Ranges BC South Central Coast
    Rainbow Range northwest Chilcotin, also classifiable as part of the Interior Plateau
    Pantheon Range Homathko area
    Niut Range Homathko area
    Waddington Range Homathko area
    Whitemantle Range Homathko area
    Bendor Range
    Garibaldi Ranges
    Clendinning Range
    Tantalus Range
    Chilcotin Ranges
    Dickson Range
    Shulaps Range
    Camelsfoot Range
    Lillooet Ranges, Fraser Canyon west bank
    Cantilever Range
    Cayoosh Range
    Douglas Ranges
    forget Alaska and stick the east coast
     
  13. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    And what does that change Pbfoot ? It was mountain terrain all the same.

    But again the men don't have to travel through the mountain terrain, they could simply be set off at or close to Anchorage.
     
  14. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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    where do you get your drugs ? could you hook me up please
     
  15. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    :rolleyes:

    Take a look at the map (Even Fairbanks is accessible):
    [​IMG]
     
  16. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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    What don't you understand there was only one road to the north west called the Alaska Highway it was built by the US and Canada but mostly American in 42- 43 its purpose was twofold it was way for the US to move troops to the Alaska but mainly to supply the airports that were built at the same time in the North west to allow combat aircraft to be supplied to the USSR . To understand the magnitude of this venture it was the 2nd mostly costly project in WW2 after the Manhattan Project and your guys are going to be wearing Lederhosen singing Horst Wessel and other selected tunes from the Sound of Music along a military road to a military zone . Alaska was not a state but a military zone. Your Lederhosen guys wouldn't stand out in the least in Fairbanks in 1940 with its population of 3500 or Anchorage at 3500 or Nome at 1500 or Fairbanks at 5500
    give your head a shake and stick to the East coast
     
  17. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    What are you talking about Pbfoot ?? Why do you keep talking about this road ?? Why would you want to walk hundreds of miles along a road when you can land right at or next to the target area. Anchorage can be reached directly via the cook inlet !

    As for Fairbanks, I see there's a large river running all the way up to it, but how deep it is I don't know, but if deep enough for a Uboat to submerge then this can be used to directly reach Fairbanks.
     
  18. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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  19. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Soren, if youre going to sail a commando ship right up to Anchorage, then why waste your time with them and simply have a mission to use the sub as a merchant hunter.

    But then again, sailing a sub in the arctic waters in poorly charted sea's was a recipe for disaster.

    They wouldn't even get there in the first place.

    BTW, Fairbanks is several hundred miles inland and not deep enough for a sub. Fat chance your commando team has enough supplies to get that far.
     
  20. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Soren you don't get -60 F in Switzerland or Austria and the area is harder to naviagate.

    Again Soren I have actually been to both of these places included Alaska. Have you? I am not basing my opinion by looking at a map while sitting 10,000 miles away...

    Also how do you plan to get to Fairbanks. I hope you are not talking about Rivers. None of the rivers are fully navigable at that time. Hell most are not today...
     
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