German Fighter Nomenclature

[tomo pauk]

Unfortunately not always. The work in question is https://eprints.qut.edu.au/87976/6/James_Rorrison_Thesis.pdf

<snip>

Ima gonna write the doctoral thesis myself now.
"Doctor Tomislav" has a nice ring to it. My mother will be proud even more, if that is possible.

 

[SaparotRob]

Ima gonna write the doctoral thesis myself now.
"Doctor Tomislav" has a nice ring to it. My mother will be proud even more, if that is possible.

I'll be glad to contribute my voluminous knowledge of airplane stuff if you think it might increase sails.

 

[GTX]

German Military Aircraft Designations (1933-1945)

 

[Vincenzo]

Ima gonna write the doctoral thesis myself now.
"Doctor Tomislav" has a nice ring to it. My mother will be proud even more, if that is possible.

Good

However if you came here, you don't need a doctoral thesis to be called Doctor

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

Unfortunately not always. The work in question is https://eprints.qut.edu.au/87976/6/James_Rorrison_Thesis.pdf

"The political decisions and policy leading to the Royal Australian Air Force having no fighters or interceptors for the coming war against Japan." Creative Industries Faculty, Queensland University of Technology. Doctorate awarded. I found the work to have so many problems I ended up generating a long list of notes, the replies I received,

"as an Institution QUT has confidence in the quality and merit of the thesis."

"you need to seek an alternative outlet for your work, perhaps an appropriate internet forum."

The title only gives a part view of the material covered as the thesis comes to the conclusion there was enough obvious information and aircraft available early enough that the RAAF could, even should, have had at least a fighter force of a couple of hundred or more fighters able to match the Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero in place as part of a proper air defence system at Darwin in mid February 1942, along with a viable counter attack force of probably Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bombers. Around that time Darwin had a population of around 1,000 people. The thesis also says WWII had intercontinental bombers.

Phrases like "Japanese deployed their Army Zero-Zen as a naval fighter". The Japanese "traditionally they were not restricted by inter-services' rivalry and obsolete thinking" which would overturn about a century of histories on the size of the Japanese Army versus Navy rivalries.

Adolf Galland, Luftwaffe fighter pilot, is the thesis source for British radar and fighter defences.

The thesis uses quotes from newspapers as sources, including wartime ones despite the inevitable censorship, rather than the relevant official documents.

The thesis has Sweden ordering P-40 which became the AVG aircraft, they were ordered before Sweden was over run, presumably by neutrality.

The thesis cannot find any evidence the Bristol Beaufort in RAAF service sank a ship, therefore as the Beauforts did not sink a ship they could not sink a ship. The first RAAF Beaufort combat sorties were at night, therefore the Beaufort only did night raids.

Quotes from the thesis,

"The Japanese raids on Chinese cities were of mammoth proportions, arguably greater than those inflicted on Poland or Britain by the Luftwaffe but by no means one sided. In mid-1940, the JAAF (Japanese Army Air Force) tried unsuccessfully to overwhelm the defences of Chungking: Every flyable night [Japanese] aircraft flew in each mission against Chungking for a total of 168 daytimes and fourteen night raids, 3 717 [planes] over the target"

"The sinking of the German pocket battleship Bismarck in 1940 was by battleships supported by naval air power in that the German warship was disabled by aircraft."

"The Hurricane would not have needed any modifications. The effort expended implementing the Wirraway program may have equated to around 800 Hurricanes delivered to the RAAF by the time Curtin harassed Churchill for fighters in January 1942." "it is reasonable to assume that 400—half production—would have reached RAAF squadrons to resist Darwin's bombing and Broome's strafing"

"Had the Mosquito, for example, been rushed into production (as in England) after the decision to manufacture it in Australia in September 1941, the Mosquito may have been operational in time for the defence of Australia and New Guinea."

"The Luftwaffe's Ernest Udet stole the dive-bomber concept from the Americans during a good-will visit in the 1930s. Via reverse engineering, Junkers Aviation turned a US plane into the gull-winged Stuka."

"When World War I began in 1914, the German airship was probably the world's best intercontinental bomber "

"Turbo-chargers, which boosted engine power temporarily in critical combat situations, were introduced as were variable propeller blades allowing for greater grip to cope with altitude and oxygen changes as aircraft flew higher and climbed more quickly."

"It was soon found during combat in China between the AVG and the Japanese air forces before Pearl Harbor that their Zero-Sen fighter out performed all Western and Russian types in most respects."

"By 1938, only the US heavy four-engined bomber with its power turrets and high altitude performance could fight its way through the enemy's fighter defences, albeit with losses although the percentage was still to be established."

"The P-38 promised to be an outstanding interceptor from the outset, reaching a top speed of 414 mph against the Beaufighter's 333 mph. The Beaufighter entered RAF service 27 July 1940 and although the Lightning was not delivered to USAAC squadrons until later, the RAF took an immediate interest in the twin-boomed fighter and placed an order for 143. The British quickly withdrew their order when the P-38 was unable to turn on a sixpence and lost the chance of getting an effective long-range tactical escort fighter which they were lacking. With Lockheed searching for buyers, this left the door open for the Menzies government to acquire the P-38 over the Beaufighter and get an air superiority fighter in 1940."

"Stylised advertisement from the British journal The Aeroplane (Temple Press, London, 14 June 1940, p. 5) that sold in Australia. This Bell Aircraft Corporation's advertisement for the P 39 proved the government had time to buy and arm the RAAF with contemporary fighters before Pearl Harbor" "Curtiss P-40s and Bell P-39s, better aircraft than the Hurricane, were still purchasable from America up until Pearl Harbor."

"Fighters that Australian industry may have made instead of the Beaufort and Wirraway included the Hurricane, Spitfire, Wildcat, Kittyhawk, Lightning and Corsair."

Wow!

Even Martin Caidin would had been hard pressed to deliver something like that, I belive.

 

[MiTasol]

German Military Aircraft Designations (1933-1945)

Fantastic list but it makes things even more confusing to me.
For example the 105 thru 107 are 1938/9 designs but the 109 is a 1934 design. And that is a typical example not an outlier.
Eg 178 is 1939 and 152 is 1944. 182 is 1938 and 183 is 1945.

There is a lot of interesting stuff there like the 8-175
I bookmarked it for further reference as the German designations had always eluded me.

 

[MiTasol]

Queensland University of Technology is in very bad shape

Not wrong.

And this clown got honours as well. What a joke.

 

[nuuumannn]

Unfortunately not always.

context context context. You've taken what I stated and took it out of context. That has little or no bearing on the point I was making.

 

[MiTasol]

I think you are both substantially correct. In a responsible tertiary institution all such documents are peer reviewed and such a document would never be accepted.

Unfortunately, it is apparent that the Queensland University of Technology had no one qualified to do the review so the old story of bullshit baffles brains won. Had that institution had integrity it would have found an external source to review that document.

The end of his first line is an indication that this paper is full of doubtful material and never proof read. World War eleven? Red flag one on line one. How bad is that.

 

[Vincenzo]

We can start a petition to QUT for deleted the doc, and possibly also the degree to mr Rorrison
that work is not enough for a high school home work

 

[SaparotRob]

I would've copied off him in high school.

 

[elbmc1969]

When referring to a type (regardless of manufacturer), I try and stay as close as possible to the original spelling: Fw187, P-36, MB.150, IAR 80, etc.

Unfortunately, the French were wildly inconsistent in official usage, with even the various manuals for the same aircraft having different designations! For example, you'd find the pilot notes for the MB152, but the basic maintenance instructions for the MB.152, and then armament notes for the M.B.152C-1.

(The "C-1" designation really confuses people used to the U.S. system, who figure that this is a C model, block 1 aircraft. C-1 just stands for "fighter, 1-seat." All French single-seat fighters officially had that designation, and the two-seaters had "C-2." The three seaters (because, French) were "C-3.")

 

[Denniss]

I believe for bomber they used B + number of crew, attack bombers probably had a letter I can't remember now

 

[Vincenzo]

would be AB (assault-bomber)

 

[elbmc1969]

I believe for bomber they used B + number of crew, attack bombers probably had a letter I can't remember now

Yes. These designations are not generally very useful, but variants that were used for different purposes can be told apart without memorizing all of the sub-model designations: Br690 C2, Br693 AB2 (with no dash because French), Br696 B2, and Br700 C2 (or -C2, or C-2, whatever you ended up with).

The Br69 series started out as a failed competitor for the heavy fighter role won by the Potez 630.

 

[MiTasol]

Unfortunately not always. The work in question is https://eprints.qut.edu.au/87976/6/James_Rorrison_Thesis.pdf

"The political decisions and policy leading to the Royal Australian Air Force having no fighters or interceptors for the coming war against Japan." Creative Industries Faculty, Queensland University of Technology. Doctorate awarded. I found the work to have so many problems I ended up generating a long list of notes, the replies I received,

"as an Institution QUT has confidence in the quality and merit of the thesis."

"you need to seek an alternative outlet for your work, perhaps an appropriate internet forum."

The title only gives a part view of the material covered as the thesis comes to the conclusion there was enough obvious information and aircraft available early enough that the RAAF could, even should, have had at least a fighter force of a couple of hundred or more fighters able to match the Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero in place as part of a proper air defence system at Darwin in mid February 1942, along with a viable counter attack force of probably Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bombers. Around that time Darwin had a population of around 1,000 people. The thesis also says WWII had intercontinental bombers.

Phrases like "Japanese deployed their Army Zero-Zen as a naval fighter". The Japanese "traditionally they were not restricted by inter-services' rivalry and obsolete thinking" which would overturn about a century of histories on the size of the Japanese Army versus Navy rivalries.

Adolf Galland, Luftwaffe fighter pilot, is the thesis source for British radar and fighter defences.

The thesis uses quotes from newspapers as sources, including wartime ones despite the inevitable censorship, rather than the relevant official documents.

The thesis has Sweden ordering P-40 which became the AVG aircraft, they were ordered before Sweden was over run, presumably by neutrality.

The thesis cannot find any evidence the Bristol Beaufort in RAAF service sank a ship, therefore as the Beauforts did not sink a ship they could not sink a ship. The first RAAF Beaufort combat sorties were at night, therefore the Beaufort only did night raids.

Quotes from the thesis,

"The Japanese raids on Chinese cities were of mammoth proportions, arguably greater than those inflicted on Poland or Britain by the Luftwaffe but by no means one sided. In mid-1940, the JAAF (Japanese Army Air Force) tried unsuccessfully to overwhelm the defences of Chungking: Every flyable night [Japanese] aircraft flew in each mission against Chungking for a total of 168 daytimes and fourteen night raids, 3 717 [planes] over the target"

"The sinking of the German pocket battleship Bismarck in 1940 was by battleships supported by naval air power in that the German warship was disabled by aircraft."

"The Hurricane would not have needed any modifications. The effort expended implementing the Wirraway program may have equated to around 800 Hurricanes delivered to the RAAF by the time Curtin harassed Churchill for fighters in January 1942." "it is reasonable to assume that 400—half production—would have reached RAAF squadrons to resist Darwin's bombing and Broome's strafing"

"Had the Mosquito, for example, been rushed into production (as in England) after the decision to manufacture it in Australia in September 1941, the Mosquito may have been operational in time for the defence of Australia and New Guinea."

"The Luftwaffe's Ernest Udet stole the dive-bomber concept from the Americans during a good-will visit in the 1930s. Via reverse engineering, Junkers Aviation turned a US plane into the gull-winged Stuka."

"When World War I began in 1914, the German airship was probably the world's best intercontinental bomber "

"Turbo-chargers, which boosted engine power temporarily in critical combat situations, were introduced as were variable propeller blades allowing for greater grip to cope with altitude and oxygen changes as aircraft flew higher and climbed more quickly."

"It was soon found during combat in China between the AVG and the Japanese air forces before Pearl Harbor that their Zero-Sen fighter out performed all Western and Russian types in most respects."

"By 1938, only the US heavy four-engined bomber with its power turrets and high altitude performance could fight its way through the enemy's fighter defences, albeit with losses although the percentage was still to be established."

"The P-38 promised to be an outstanding interceptor from the outset, reaching a top speed of 414 mph against the Beaufighter's 333 mph. The Beaufighter entered RAF service 27 July 1940 and although the Lightning was not delivered to USAAC squadrons until later, the RAF took an immediate interest in the twin-boomed fighter and placed an order for 143. The British quickly withdrew their order when the P-38 was unable to turn on a sixpence and lost the chance of getting an effective long-range tactical escort fighter which they were lacking. With Lockheed searching for buyers, this left the door open for the Menzies government to acquire the P-38 over the Beaufighter and get an air superiority fighter in 1940."

"Stylised advertisement from the British journal The Aeroplane (Temple Press, London, 14 June 1940, p. 5) that sold in Australia. This Bell Aircraft Corporation's advertisement for the P 39 proved the government had time to buy and arm the RAAF with contemporary fighters before Pearl Harbor" "Curtiss P-40s and Bell P-39s, better aircraft than the Hurricane, were still purchasable from America up until Pearl Harbor."

"Fighters that Australian industry may have made instead of the Beaufort and Wirraway included the Hurricane, Spitfire, Wildcat, Kittyhawk, Lightning and Corsair."

Interesting story in todays ABC news about Universities and dodgy academic papers - An online sleuth exposed dozens of dodgy research papers. Then someone threatened to kill them.

The comment "We all pay the price when the institutions that are supposed to protect the integrity of the scientific process fall asleep at the wheel." sums it up quite nicely.

They followed with "The erosion of public trust in science gives rise to movements such as anti-vaccination and climate skepticism," they said.

"On the other hand, people who do rely on science may be basing crucial private and public decisions on incorrect information. The long-term impacts of a compromised scientific process may be catastrophic,"

Incidentally the only James Rorrison I can find in Aus is a Qld Government Editor so I guess those of us who live in the "sunshine state" will get to see more of his fairy tails

 

[GTX]

You beat me to it.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

There is the Australian Government Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency

Complaints | Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency

www.teqsa.gov.au

Raising a complaint or concern - online form | Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency

www.teqsa.gov.au

I was thinking of coming up with a summary of the problems with the thesis that someone without the history background could look at and quickly understand how bad the thesis is. Including quoting the URL for this discussion to show it is not just me that considers the work bad.

As for James Rorrison, I do not know much about him. QUT say they contacted him but he was ill, he never responded to me. He was probably a mature age student and possibly retired. The following books seem to fit, the thesis overlaps with the first book.

Nor the Years Contemn: Air War on the Australian Front 1941-42. With a Foreword by Air Commodore R.N. Dalkin. RORRISON James D. Self published. Publication Date: 1992

Daughter of Australia : the remarkable life story of Nina Finn / Author Rorrison, James D.; Year 2000. Publisher Kewmill Pty Ltd,

 

[GregP]

Thanks! You're the man.

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Hey Snautzer01, THANKS!
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[Engineman]

German Military Aircraft Designations (1933-1945)

Thanks for posting. Useful info but, a strange mixture of definitive details and, very general info on the subject aircraft and engines etc. For instance, there is no reference to the 1943 Me 209 development, just the pre-war rekord machine.
Cheers

Eng