German Fighter Nomenclature

[denny]

Sorry if this has been explained many times. But when you do a search on a topis as big as this, it is hard.....for ME at least.... to find answers to a specific question.

Thinking of usa fighters................... P-38, P-40, P-47, P-51
Makes some kind of sense.

But the two main German fighters were the BF-109 and FW-190
I assume that was not a coincidence, that the numbers were so similar for a reason.?
Why were the two numbers so close, made up of the same three numbers.?
Thank You

 

[tomo pauk]

Bf 108 ('civilian' machine) preceedes the 109, the 110 (2-engined heavy fighter) is the next.
Fw 189 is a 2-engined recon, the Fw 191 is a 2-engine bomber. The Fw 187 precedes both those and the 190.
To me it is just a coincidence the numbers used were the same 3.

P-51, P-47, P-38 were not company designations, but USAAC ones.

 

[nuuumannn]

The RLM standardised aircraft designations based on their manufacturer, Bf for Bayerische Fluzeugwerke, Fw for Focke Wulf, He for Heinkel etc. The numerical suffixes were design numbers allocated based on sequential products by those manufacturers. Note that with German designations there is not normally a hyphen or dot between the manufacturer designation and the numerical one, eg. He 111 is not He-111 or He.111 (oops, being a thread about fighters I should use a fighter example) or Fw 190 is not Fw-190 or Fw.190.

 

[Crimea_River]

I believe that the RLM controlled the issue of the 3 digit blocks to the various manufacturers as well so that you could not have, for example, a Ju88 and an He88. All of the numbers are unique with a very few exceptions. The 109 and 190 numbers are purely coincidence.

EDIT: on a side note, the numbers used by the manufacturers were not always used chronologically. Kurt Tank (Ta) first used the 154, then the 153, and finally the 152.

 

[nuuumannn]

I believe that the RLM controlled the issue of the 3 digit blocks to the various manufacturers as well so that you could not have, for example, a Ju88 and an He88. All of the numbers are unique with a very few exceptions. The 109 and 190 numbers are purely coincidence.

I've not read that, but it's quite possible, but there were a few manufacturers that had both two and three digit numbers, Arado, Heinkel and Junkers, for example. There was the odd occasion where numbers coincided though, the Bf 162 and He 162 was one, but like you stated, there were few exceptions.

 

[Denniss]

some numbers were re-assigned, sometimes because the original assignee never made it to production or in the case of He 162 and Me 163 to hide something new behind an older number.
Larger aircraft manufacturers often got blocks of 5 or even 10 numbers assigned. sometime they got a special extension for successful aircraft like the Ju 88, reserving 188/288/388/488 or Ju 90 and the extensions 290/390

 

[denny]

Very Informative.
Thanks Everybody

 

[GrauGeist]

To expand on the Messerschmitt prefix:

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke had the Bf prefix until July 1938, when the prefix was changed to Me.

The numbering convention remained the same, though.

So you'll see Bf108, Bf109, Bf110, Bf161, Bf162, Bf163 and Bf165 up to July 1938.

After late July 1938, you'll see Me208, Me209, Me209-II, Me210 and so on.

Regarding the Me163, as noted in the post above, the RLM did on occasion, re-use numbers, as in the case of the Bf163/Me163 and Bf162/He162.

 

[spicmart]

IIRC sometimes the RLM would assign the numbers. The Ta 154 was the Ta 211 because it was designed to use the Jumo 211 engine from the get-go.
The Ta 152 and Ta 153 were also numbers given by the RLM.
But I have to check.

 

[Denniss]

The RLM had the supervision so only the RLM could assign, reassign or remove them.

 

[mig2830]

The RLM was issuing the type numbers for all airframes, engines etc. The numbers were picked off a list fro 0 to 999 so to speak and with a prefix of 8 for aeroplanes.

So to RLM a Bf109 would be 8-109, a FW190 would be 8-190. Engines would be prefix 9, so a DB605 was in RLM terms a 9-605.

The frefix of Bf, ME, FW etc was an indication of the design company company and later during the war the designer could be used as the Kurt Tank designs would be TA. There was no reuse of numbers.

BR

 

[GrauGeist]

There was no reuse of numbers.

Except for:

8-11: Do11/Wn11
8-16: Wn16/Do16
8-26: Do26/Kl26
8-42: He42/Fw42
8-47: Fw47/He47
8-49: Ju49/He49
8-55: NR55/Fw55
8-58: Fw58/He58
8-60: He60/Ju60
8-61: Fw61/He61
8-62: Fw62/He62
8-64: He64/Ar64
8-65: Ar65/He65
8-66: Ar66/He66
8-103: Fi103/Al103
8-136: Ha136/Hü136
8-147: Go147/Ju147
8-152: Ta152/Kl152
8-162: Bf162/He162
8-163: Bf163/Me163
8-166: FK166/Fi166
8-186: Ju186/Fw186
8-187: Fw187/Ju187
8-209: Me209/Me209-II
8-225: Ao225/Fa225
8-226: BV226/Ho226
8-250: BV250/Ho250
8-254: Ta254/Ho254
8-256: Fl256/Me256
8-334: Ar334/Me334
8-344: Rk344/So344
8-430: Ar430/Ka430

 

[nuuumannn]

The whole Me versus Bf is a bit of a controversial subject and it isn't as clear cut as people believe it to be. Messerschmitt often used the prefix "Me" to describe the Bf 109 in in-house paperwork. Within this thread below of Bf 109 manuals there is a manual for the Emil described on its front cover as an "Me 109", look for "Bf 109e Handbuch":

New Bf-109 Manuals Thread

Ok, Ive never been happy the way I created this thread. So Im rebuilding it and adding more manuals. Sources of manuals translations and such Luftwaffe Cockpitinstrumente Homepage Titelseite Instrumente Gertebrett Baumuster The 109 Lair- The Online Source for Messerschmitt 109 information...

ww2aircraft.net

Although Bf 109 is certainly the accepted definition, Me 109 is certainly not unacceptable (but Me-109 or Me.109 is! I read a magazine article once in a local publication that had three different ways of designating the aircraft! Consistency, people!)

 

[GrauGeist]

The whole Me versus Bf is a bit of a controversial subject and it isn't as clear cut as people believe it to be. Messerschmitt often used the prefix "Me" to describe the Bf 109 in in-house paperwork. Within this thread below of Bf 109 manuals there is a manual for the Emil described on its front cover as an "Me 109", look for "Bf 109e Handbuch":

New Bf-109 Manuals Thread

Ok, Ive never been happy the way I created this thread. So Im rebuilding it and adding more manuals. Sources of manuals translations and such Luftwaffe Cockpitinstrumente Homepage Titelseite Instrumente Gertebrett Baumuster The 109 Lair- The Online Source for Messerschmitt 109 information...

ww2aircraft.net

Although Bf 109 is certainly the accepted definition, Me 109 is certainly not unacceptable (but Me-109 or Me.109 is! I read a magazine article once in a local publication that had three different ways of designating the aircraft! Consistency, people!)

When referring to a type (regardless of manufacturer), I try and stay as close as possible to the original spelling: Fw187, P-36, MB.150, IAR 80, etc.
In some original German documents, I noticed many times, no spacing between the prefix and the numerals, (i.e.: Ju87, StG44, BK3,7 and so on) and then sometimes there appeared to be a space.

Sometimes it's hard to keep track of all that stuff!

 

[Denniss]

Mtt tried to convince RLM to replace the Bf prefix with Me for existing designs but this was straight-out denied. It was accepted for new designs though.
The "Me 109" manual was issued by Mtt itself, any official manual issued by RLM beared Bf 109 until the end

 

[nuuumannn]

Sometimes it's hard to keep track of all that stuff!

It is, Dave and you're right, I stick with Bf 109 because it sets a consistency.

The "Me 109" manual was issued by Mtt itself, any official manual issued by RLM beared Bf 109 until the end

Yup, that's why I said that Messerschmitt referred to the type as the "Me 109" in-house, so my point was that Me 109 isn't inaccurate per se, in case anyone chooses to call the aircraft by that name.

 

[special ed]

If we are going to be super accurate, then we should use periods in the manufacturer's designation, such as P.Z.L. and I.A.R. If we don't, we still know what is being described.

 

[nuuumannn]

If we are going to be super accurate, then we should use periods in the manufacturer's designation, such as P.Z.L. and I.A.R. If we don't, we still know what is being described.

My point is not just about accuracy but consistency. It looks untidy if you jump between how designations are presented when writing - I write professionally and I am studying aviation subjects through university so such a thing is relevant in my life at least.

 

[GrauGeist]

Technically speaking, PZL (Państwowe Zakłady Lotnicze) doesn't have periods in the abbreviation.
And here's a handy tid-bit: when referring to PZL types, most aircraft use PZL and the type's number, like the PZL.37, PZL.23, PZL.19, etc.
The exception is, that all PZL fighters have a P prefix, like the PZL P.11, P.24 and so on.

 

[Engineman]

A few words about consistency in terms and nomenclature. Often, I will be referring to specific details about aircraft and engines from original documentation. I try to always use the same terms and style used in the reference material. This can vary but, I think it is accurate. Sometimes documentation can seem to be slightly incorrect but, if we are effectively quoting from old official source, we should be accurate to source. Of course, real errors or large differences will require explanation in text.
One point about the Bf109, it seems to me with my own experiences that the 109 was and is still referred to in German as the "Me-einhundertneun", or just "einhundertneun". Also, the "Me" sounds to me in UK English as "May". Certainly much easier in normal conversation than to say "Bayerische Flugzeugwerke 109". Of course, in common use, most aircraft have abreviated or slang nicknames. I recall reading a German Ace pilot's book where he says he referred to his aircraft as "crates"!

Cheers

Eng