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Ju-88 - why not? It was able to carry a bigger bomb load, and we're just saved a lots of Ju 211s with the radial attacker/light bomber switcheroo.If telling Dornier to license produce another aircraft, why not jump straight to the Ju 88 instead of the He 111? Ju 88 had it's first flight in late 1936, and by mid-late 1937 they knew they were onto a winner. Now it took a few more years before it entered service, so setting up another Dornier-ran shadow factory in 1937 might have been a bit too early. Then again, if Udet had not insisted on redesigning the plane for the dive bomber role, maybe it could have been ready somewhat earlier?
Sticking the G-R 14N's on the Ju 88 could have been interesting as well. Probably mostly a wash performance-wise compared to the Jumo 211, but at least it would have been a second source of engines. But if (pretty big if!) they could have produced the G-R 14 radials in sufficient numbers, could this have largely replaced the need for the Jumo 211, allowing Jumo engineering to focus more on next generation projects like the 213 and 004?
While the belt-fed MG FF was indeed hypothetical on the 1-engined fighters, it was a reality on some Do 217 night fighters.A question about the MG FF and a hypothetical belt feed mehanism. If the germans somehow managed to do that early enough, just like the japanese eventually did, how many rpg could be fitted in the Bf-109E wing? Same for the Bf-109F-1 axial MG FF.
The more slender ammo might allow still for 150 dr/gun to be carried in the wings. Yes, the ammo belts will need to be set as it was the case with British fighters, ie. parallel to the datum line, and not in 'spiral' like the MG 151s had above the gondolas.When the MG-151/20 was fitted iirc 150 rpg was the ammo supply. Could a close figure be viable for a belt fed MG FF as well? Also does that mean there is no need for underwing bulges for the drums on the Bf-109E and Fw-190 models if the guns were belt fed?
Thanks for the insight. From memory the Zero for instance went from 100 rpg drums to 125 rpg belts. I've read that in Hurricanes and Spitfires the count increased from 60 rpg in drums to 120 in belts, though that is for a different cannon. And there is the IAR-81C with 175 rpg for the Mausers vs. 60 for the drum fed Ikarias, though presumably some of the increase was from removing two 7,92mm MGs. Are there figures for FW-190 outer Mauser cannons rpg that replaced the MG FF, as strangely i couldn't find anything quickly online?While the belt-fed MG FF was indeed hypothetical on the 1-engined fighters, it was a reality on some Do 217 night fighters.
The motor cannon on the 109 was with 150-200 rds (?) IIRC. MG FF(M) used the more slender ammo than the MG 151, so the numbers carried could've been greater.
The more slender ammo might allow still for 150 dr/gun to be carried in the wings. Yes, the ammo belts will need to be set as it was the case with British fighters, ie. parallel to the datum line, and not in 'spiral' like the MG 151s had above the gondolas.
Drums were a reason for the bulges under the wings on the fighter with the MG FFs there, so without the drum, the need to have the bulges is probably not there anymore.
140 rd/gun for the outer MG 151s on the A6.Are there figures for FW-190 outer Mauser cannons rpg that replaced the MG FF, as strangely i couldn't find anything quickly online?
My idea is to remove the cowl LMGs (and later not to install the HMGs) and their ammo, obviously.I'm trying to guesstimate how many MG FF rounds could the Bf-109E carry with belts instead of the 60 rpg drums. What would you say is a realistic figure, is 90-100 feasible, too little, too much? Based on what you say, a belt fed axial MG FF should carry at least same number of rounds like the MG 151 right, so 150 rpg for a Bf-109F-1 is doable (hence at least rectifying one of the complaints regarding firepower)?
The better 47mm better AT guns were probably better users of the tungsten carbide than the 37mm gunsThe 5cm Pak 38 was a better use of tungsten carbide.
Yes, it matches the accepted thinking (and their own assessments) that Germany did not have the breath for a long, exhausting war. Germany's war in the west was just that - short and devastating campaigns. Poland, respite, Denmark/Norway almost complete before Battle of France, rest,
Whether better logistics (and let's say a better plan of Barbarossa than Halder's) would lead to the collapse of the USSR is a slightly bigger question. But it is not entirely impossible that the fall of Leningrad, Moscow and Ukraine in 1941/2 would reduce the Soviets (at least for a while) to negligible danger and thus provide (them) time to fortify the coasts of Europe and set up air defenses and/or clear North Africa and/or neutralize the UK. That is, to prepare for the arrival in the USA.
The Soviets were very interested in receiving material aid from the Western Powers. According to a telegram sent by Stalin to Churchill on 3 September, the Soviets would be defeated, or so seriously weakened, that they would be unable to undertake any active operations against Germany if it did not receive material help from Britain, and without the opening of a second front in France or the Balkans.67 The next day Ambassador Cripps sent a telegram, distributed to Churchill, the War Cabinet and the FO. Cripps urged British action in order to create a diversion from the hard-pressured Soviets, otherwise a collapse would commence.68 Three days later he sent another telegram to the FO and the War Cabinet, describing a meeting with Stalin. On a direct question Stalin was uncertain as to whether or not the Soviets could hold out until the spring. But by this Stalin did not mean a separate peace, but outright defeat, even though he did not see this happening and rather implied prolonged retreat, possibly to the Volga.69
When he spoke to Stalin they also touched upon the loss of economic assets due to the German advance. If he received this information specifically from Stalin or not is unclear, but Cripps nevertheless stated that the loss of (and up to) the Donets Basin, Moscow and Leningrad would mean a loss of two-thirds of the capacity to supply the front.70 Without these areas the USSR would be forced to abstain from active participation, and withdraw to a defensive position. If the Donets were lost Stalin believed that they would need steel and coal, otherwise the railways would not function. In addition there would be a greatly enhanced need for aircraft and tanks, but most of all for aluminium. Stalin saw no need for food imports during the winter, except for some wheat to the Far East.71 The need for aluminium was also stressed in Stalin's telegram to Churchill from 3 September.72 In a despatch from Cripps dated 15 September he stated that he had heard rumours concerning the serious food situation in some outlying districts, due to the worsening of the civilian transport situation as a result of the war.73 In late October Cripps informed the FO that several sources reported about a "serious food shortage". 74
The idea the Germans did not mobilise until 1942 or later is largely wrong, what they did do was squeeze the civilian side of the economy harder and stepped up efficiency.
The importance of the Mosbass should not be overestimated. In 1940 it provided about 6% of the total coal production in the USSR and mainly brown coal for power plants . After the evacuation of factories in the Tula region in 1941 (for example, the Kosogorsk metallurgical plant was evacuated to Lys'va in Ural region), the importance of the Mosbass further decreased. In 1942 the Mosbass produced less coal than in 1941, only in 1943 production increased by 70%.The Red Army counter attack around Moscow in 1941 recovered the Mosbas coal mines, an important resource.
I would just add that statements (especially by politicians) are just that - just a statements.
A small illustration note - the Convair B-36 was born from the request to build an intercontinental bomber - during 1940 when the Americans expected that the UK might lose the war (after the fall of France and during BoB) and that they would not have friendly bases in Europe.
Up until early 1944, the bomb was still talked about as if it were going to be a deterrent against Germany. By August 1943, for example, Vannevar Bush was still reporting to Roosevelt that the Germans might be ahead, or at least neck-and-neck in the "race" for the bomb: "This may result in a situation where it will be necessary for us to stand the first punishing blows before we are in a position to destroy the enemy." By early 1944, Groves had decided that the Germans having a bomb was "unlikely," but that it still needed to be held out as a possibility. By late 1944, it was clear, from the Alsos mission, that Germany was nowhere near an atomic bomb — and indeed, they soon learned that the German program was in 1945 not even as far as where the Americans had gotten by the end of 1942. I put this out just as context for their thinking. Over the course of late 1943 through 1944, the bomb shifted from being a deterrent to a first-strike weapon — a weapon that was meant to be used, not held in reserve.
The point of use of the first bomb was discussed and the general view appeared to be that its best point of use would be on a Japanese fleet concentration in the Harbor of Truk. General Styer suggested Tokio but it was pointed out that the bomb should be used where, if it failed to go off, it would land in water of sufficient depth to prevent easy salvage. The Japanese were selected as they would not be so apt to secure knowledge from it as would the Germans.1
REPORTER: General Groves, could we go back for a minute. You mentioned in your book [Now it Can Be Told] that just before the Yalta Conference that President Roosevelt said if we had bombs before the European war was over he would like to drop them on Germany.3 Would you discuss this?
GROVES: At the conference that Secretary Stimson and myself had with President Roosevelt shortly before his departure, I believe it was December 30th or 31st of 1944, President Roosevelt was quite disturbed over the Battle of the Bulge and he asked me at that time whether I could bomb Germany as well as Japan. The plan had always been to bomb Japan because we thought the war in Germany was pretty apt to be over in the first place and in the second place the Japanese building construction was much more easily damaged by a bomb of this character than that in Germany. I urged President Roosevelt that it would be very difficult for various reasons.
The main one was that the Germans had quite strong aerial defense. They made a practice, as every nation does, that when a new plane came into the combat area, that they would run any risk that they could to bring such a plane down so that they could examine it and see what new ideas had come in so that they could make improvements and also would know the characteristics of the plane so that they could prepare a better defense against it. We had no B-29's in Europe. If we had sent over a small squadron or group as we did against Japan of this type, everyone of them would have been brought down on the first trip to Germany. If they hadn't been, it would have been through no lack of effort on the part of the Germans.
The alternative would be to bring a large number of B-29's over to to England and that would have been a major logistical task and the other possibility would have been to have used a British plane which would not have been a bit pleasing to General Arnold and also would have created a great many difficulties for our general operation because then it would be an Allied operation with the United States furnishing the bombs and everything connected with it but using a British plane and a British crew to actually drop the bomb and it would have raised a tremendous number of difficulties.
And difficulties like that — while you say you should be able to handle that — you can but in a project of this character there are so many little things, each one of them key, that you can't afford to throw any more sand into the wheels that you can help.
The bombing of Germany with atomic bombs was, I would say, never seriously considered to the extent of making definite plans but on this occasion I told the President, Mr. Roosevelt, why it would be very unfortunate from my standpoint, I added that of course if the President — if the war demanded it and the President so desired, we would bomb Germany and I was so certain personally that the war in Europe would be over before we would be ready that you might say I didn't give it too much consideration.
I think it is quite ungrateful to claim what would happen in case of this or that event, especially based on statements (and also no plan are set in stone).
In these debates what is defined as a long war and at what intensity? The 4+ years of WWI, the 5.66 years of WWII, the hundred years war? Germany alone against the world? Average western front (1915 to 1918) consumption and casualties from the start? Go and stop, only a few months of heavy ground and air combat in 21 months September 1939 to May 1941? Are we talking Germany as in 1936 or mid 1939? Italy as an active ally requiring resources? Choose one or the other and shortages grow and shrink.
Originally, thanks to Speer and things like statistics on the number of people classified as servants in 1942 the idea was little German economic mobilisation until 1942. In reality the Nazis were using things like off the books loans to push the economy hard in the 1930's trying to build autarky in planned key areas, like chemicals, explosives, rubber and oil while creating a powerful military, the war prevented a financial crisis, the pre war expansions into Austria and Czechoslovakia having fiscal reasons as well. The plan had its draw backs, synthetic oil costs more than natural which inhibited the take up of motor vehicles and so the civil demand. With guaranteed orders and profits local industry did not push hard on exports which were needed to generate the foreign exchange needed resulting in problems obtaining foreign credit. With women told to go make babies and plenty of government jobs available "full employment" was achieved, which certainly improved people's outlook on life, while purchasing ability and choice was improved versus the depression it was curtailed by the military allocations. Compare 1939 with 1933/34 and things look much better, use 1928/29 and they are worse.
The multi volume set Germany and the second world war has an article on economic preparations for war, Germany's trade in value terms bottomed out in 1934 at a third that of 1928 and 1929, it recovered to about 40% by 1939, which was a good thing for war planning as 60% of trade was expected to be cut or severely curtailed in a war with Britain and France, including metals, ores and liquid fuels. Nazi ideology downgraded the USSR from a top 3 trading partner to around 30th. If mobilisation had actually used the expected fuel levels Germany would have problems after between 2 (Diesel) and 7 (avgas) months of war. Coal miner work days went from 8 to 8.75 hours in 1939, electricity and gas had to be rationed pre war, the withdrawal of 3 million men from the economy had the inevitable effects, including coal shortages in the 1939/40 winter.
By incorporating Austria and Czechoslovakia Germany's steel production in 1939 finally exceeded the 1929 figure, being gifted over 1,000 aircraft and 500 or so tanks etc. from the Czech military was useful, similar for Austria. France supplied important raw materials and by allowing Vichy to rule kept the sea lanes to North Africa open, as well as links to Portugal and Türkiye.
Germany's expansion to June 1941 and into say Q3/41 was economically quite profitable, solving many raw material problems without using large amounts of raw materials to do so, with low casualties while providing plenty of war booty for at least training and second line formations. Was all that use of Red Army 76.2mm guns a sign of shortages or intelligent use of resources? Germany charged occupied countries fees paid in kind with raw materials with rigged currency exchange rates, while the army in the USSR used local resources where possible.
The ideal economy is balanced, no over or under production and not even the US could have everything it thought it needed. So you need to make judgement calls on where raw materials became the key shortage, and there are plenty of statements about could have, if only. Nazi ideology meant the killing or under employed millions of potential workers. The Germans worked around shortages, so did everyone else, they tailored their production to their resources, so did everyone else, they made decisions about stuff now versus production capacity now, stuff later, so did everyone else. Lots of local material crisis, so did everyone else. The western allies increased mechanisation of their farm sectors, the Germans employed more foreigners, a second best solution based on available resources. Germany's economy as managed did not suffer badly from raw material shortages like everyone else's because of production decisions, but at the same time specific programs like the jet engines certainly did, assemble enough specific programs or items and you can prove a material shortage, note the overall economy running reasonably smoothly and prove no real material shortages. How about introducing widespread refrigeration and watch food spoilage go down and reduce the need to buy fresh produce every day or two, cutting raw material use and increasing available worker hours. Another resource issue?
It looks like around May 1944 was the time German raw material shortages became widespread, that is usual requirements could not be met, reducing things like steel output, but the time lag between raw material and finished product meant peak war production was later. There is also an issue about the types and quality of steel being made given the alloy metal availability. A lack of steel was cited as an important reason in curtailing the synthetic oil program after war began as an example, cancelling warships another. Having the ability to retire military horses in favour of motorisation would have made the Heer more effective, so does the lack of truck and fuel production count as raw material constraint? How about the steel to make the truck and fuel plants? Or does having more tanks etc. now instead of more per month later provide enough benefits that it is an allocation decision, not a shortage decision? How about agricultural machinery instead of tanks?
Romania had plenty of oil for a European nation, built an oil based economy as a result and so only a minority of production was available for export, throw a gigantic wrecking ball into an economy of 20 million people and make a couple of million tons a year of oil available for others?
No one and everyone suffered shortages in WWII, in terms of economy wide production the wheels generally kept turning despite local problems, output was adjusted as required, with lots of shortages blamed. Measured against the western allies in things like trucks and artillery pieces per soldier the Germans had shortages in percentage terms as well as absolute terms. Is percentage a better way of measuring shortages?
The Nazi expansion of war making and sustaining ability pre war was near the limits of peace time abilities, the mid 1940 to mid 1941 period was the last real chance to lay down long term capacity increases but that ran into the need for more air and sea power to fight Britain and an increase in land power to fight the USSR, plus provide occupation troops in the newly controlled territories before talking hubris.
The Red Army counter attack around Moscow in 1941 recovered the Mosbas coal mines, an important resource.
To reiterate, if you want just about anybody's 1939 economy to look good, compare it to the 1932 to 1934 one, want it to look bad compare it to the 1928/29 one and what really is a definition of a shortage for an economy, not just an individual program. Remember Britain and Canada combined were short of resources compared with the US, just like Germany.
The original statement talked about things before the war, the strengthening of key war making industries in the 1930's, reduction of key imports, now we are in 1940, at war, with many uncertainties resolved, and like others entering the war pruning of long term projects had happened, those that could produce useful items over the next couple of years continued. So yes, the Germans in early 1940 assumed a war in France would be at least a two year campaign. What was the pre war planning assumptions on war opponents and duration? The ones that formed the basis of pre war capacity planning?Basically, the war as fought. Going into 1940, the Germans weren't expecting a quick victory but a prolonged struggled for France.
The systems built before and early in the war were capacity, which is separate to the sources of inputs, September 1939 to May 1944 is 56 or so months, no one could afford that level of vital war stocks. The conquests gave the raw materials and extra industrial capacity, including niche items like steel mills able to use different ore grades. During the war German capacity was overall quite well matched to raw materials once adjustments were made, like everyone else, shortages were worked around. The old assumption the Germans did not do long term capacity planning and expansion is as wrong as they did a really good job at it so the conquests are not really that relevant. Essentially the Germans idled large numbers of non German factories etc. to ensure the German ones had enough raw materials, that had its usual downside, for example making new, or just spare parts for, non German agricultural machinery.The GSWW series notes their build out plans were meant for this, with munitions output set to peak in the second half of 1941 and thus presumably striking the fatal blow around that point. With the conquests they did rack up in 1940-1942, the systems the Germans did build before the war were able to carry them through until their collapse in 1944-1945 as Schmelzig notes.
Germany and the Second world War yearly figures have a different take which needs to be resolved, the UN figures have a footnote regarding Germany, in 1938 Germany expanded to absorb Austria and parts of Czechoslovakia, what does the UN report for those countries? Things like goods or goods and services and loan repayments come into play.I agree with some of this and some I don't. The UN trading statistics for example show Germany had recovered to 80% of the level of 1928 by 1938:
How exactly does an April 1939 decision be affected by a long standing trade situation? Which is different to hegemony, that came in 1940/41. Also how does Poland fit in the hegemony concept, given its trade in 1938 in value terms is around those of the Balkan countries, though Poland had 1.75 to 5.7 times more people than the Balkan countries listed. The Balkan states noted they were at a disadvantage with Germany, being a minority of German trade but a big slice of theirs, unfortunately the British table of Balkan trade in 1938 only lists the major powers, there had to be intra Balkan trade for a start, so these percentage will need adjustment down, but 54.5% Germany, 7.1% Austria, 10.3% Czechoslovakia, 9.2% Italy, 4.7% France, 14.2% BritainWithout question, the loss of trade with the Soviets was a blow initially, but the Germans made up for it by intensified trade with Southern and Eastern Europe, as Germany had effectively established economic hegemony in the region and this was a major reason for the Anglo-French taking a hardline on Poland:
MEFO were internal currency, not foreign exchange, which required selling things to other people.As for the MEFO situation, what had happened was they had run out of foreign exchange to fund the purchases necessary for continued rearmament at the pace they were on.
The British and French had begun rearmament in 1935/36 and as they noted the increasing German expenditure they in turn increased theirs, and began to involve other countries, like the US. The British and French economies combined were superior to Germany's and that was beginning to tell.This had happened before in 1937 and had been resolved without an economic collapse by slowing down the pace of rearmament. What was different in 1939 was that the Anglo-French had begun to rearm following Munich, which made taking another pause more dicey.
No one ever said they faced a collapse, only a combination of internal finance plus foreign exchange problems. The Nazis more than quadrupled the military budget between 1934/35 and 1938/39, plus about a sixth of total military spend in the time period came from the loans, with no new loans written in 1939. In 1938 42.7% of German Government expenditure was on the military, representing 18.1% of the GDP. In the first year of WWII the Government was using 35.7% of it's budget to repay loans, from around September 1940 onwards the German government spent more money on loan repayments than new weapons. In the period 1 September 1943 to 31 August 1944, the percentage split was Wehrmacht 23.1%, civil departments 11.6%, debt repayments 65.3%. In 1933 the German government had debts as 1 short and 11 long term, in 1939 it was 15 short and 27 long term (not sure about units).Basically, the Germans weren't at risk of an economic collapse but they did face the situation of having to take another pause or repress living standards.
What exactly were the resources in Poland and how long would they last?Ultimately, Hitler created a third option of war with Poland in the expectation it wouldn't lead to the onset of a general war while granting the resources needed to continue arming;
In simple terms no, the German navy was too small. When the RN went around selling total cost of ownership as a yearly sum over the lifetime of the ship, a battleship cost 58.5 naval aircraft, a large cruiser 26.1, a small cruiser 17.6 and a destroyer or submarine around 5.7. As a quick guide double the aircraft cost for twin engine bombers. Apart from changes in manufacturing capacity there were economic reasons why there was no 1930's dreadnought race. During the war a medium tank cost around the same as a single seat single engine fighter, in 1939 the Germans built 732 tanks including 246 panzer II and 8,295 aircraft of all types. The army had a much bigger wages, accommodation, transport etc cost than the air force or navy but a much lower per capita equipment cost. On 2 September 1939 the Luftwaffe quartermaster reported operational combat units held 3,609 aircraft, plus another 552 transports, on 11 May 1940 the figures were 4,782 and 471.With the benefit of hindsight, the best option was to cancel or delay Plan Z which began in 1939 and would've freed up sufficient resources that the Army and Luftwaffe could continue to arm without triggering the onset of a general war yet.
British report of German metal stocks as of September 1939, at 1939 consumption rate, months of stocks, copper 7.2, lead 9.7, zinc 11.5, antimony 13.6, cobalt 30, nickel, molybdenum, chrome and vanadium all about 13 months, tungsten 15, manganese ore 18 months, iron ore stocks 9 months at 1938 (not 9) consumption rate. I suggest dropping the spoiler label of included data. The original statement talked about things before the war, the strengthening of key war making industries in the 1930's, reduction of key imports, now we are in 1940, at war, with many uncertainties resolved, and like others entering the war pruning of long term projects had happened, those that could produce useful items over the next couple of years continued. So yes, the Germans in early 1940 assumed a war in France would be at least a two year campaign. What was the pre war planning assumptions on war opponents and duration? The ones that formed the basis of pre war capacity planning?
The systems built before and early in the war were capacity, which is separate to the sources of inputs, September 1939 to May 1944 is 56 or so months, no one could afford that level of vital war stocks. The conquests gave the raw materials and extra industrial capacity, including niche items like steel mills able to use different ore grades. During the war German capacity was overall quite well matched to raw materials once adjustments were made, like everyone else, shortages were worked around. The old assumption the Germans did not do long term capacity planning and expansion is as wrong as they did a really good job at it so the conquests are not really that relevant. Essentially the Germans idled large numbers of non German factories etc. to ensure the German ones had enough raw materials, that had its usual downside, for example making new, or just spare parts for, non German agricultural machinery.
Germany and the Second world War yearly figures have a different take which needs to be resolved, the UN figures have a footnote regarding Germany, in 1938 Germany expanded to absorb Austria and parts of Czechoslovakia, what does the UN report for those countries? Things like goods or goods and services and loan repayments come into play.
How exactly does an April 1939 decision be affected by a long standing trade situation? Which is different to hegemony, that came in 1940/41. Also how does Poland fit in the hegemony concept, given its trade in 1938 in value terms is around those of the Balkan countries, though Poland had 1.75 to 5.7 times more people than the Balkan countries listed. The Balkan states noted they were at a disadvantage with Germany, being a minority of German trade but a big slice of theirs, unfortunately the British table of Balkan trade in 1938 only lists the major powers, there had to be intra Balkan trade for a start, so these percentage will need adjustment down, but 54.5% Germany, 7.1% Austria, 10.3% Czechoslovakia, 9.2% Italy, 4.7% France, 14.2% Britain
MEFO were internal currency, not foreign exchange, which required selling things to other people.
The British and French had begun rearmament in 1935/36 and as they noted the increasing German expenditure they in turn increased theirs, and began to involve other countries, like the US. The British and French economies combined were superior to Germany's and that was beginning to tell.
No one ever said they faced a collapse, only a combination of internal finance plus foreign exchange problems. The Nazis more than quadrupled the military budget between 1934/35 and 1938/39, plus about a sixth of total military spend in the time period came from the loans, with no new loans written in 1939. In 1938 42.7% of German Government expenditure was on the military, representing 18.1% of the GDP. In the first year of WWII the Government was using 35.7% of it's budget to repay loans, from around September 1940 onwards the German government spent more money on loan repayments than new weapons. In the period 1 September 1943 to 31 August 1944, the percentage split was Wehrmacht 23.1%, civil departments 11.6%, debt repayments 65.3%. In 1933 the German government had debts as 1 short and 11 long term, in 1939 it was 15 short and 27 long term (not sure about units).
What exactly were the resources in Poland and how long would they last?
Are you accusing HistoryLearner of using AI? Nothing in his post indicates that. If he did use AI, it would be easy to check if the sources cited don't even exist…AI assisted responses and their too detailed fact checks may lead to the demise of this forum.