Germany vs Japan

[wmaxt]

apparently at one point the germans were sending the japs a copy of the plans for their A-bomb when they knew they'd loose the war, but it never got to japan...........

At the end of the war the Germans sent a large quantity to Japan to create a "Dirty Bomb" for use against the US. The war ended and the sub surrendered to the US with the material still aboard - saved San Fransico!

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

oh ok thanks..................

 

[rebel8303]

I imagine the consequences if it had succeeded its mission...
Shock and awe?

 

[HealzDevo]

There is still one major problem with that. The material has to actually get to the US in some way. It would be a very difficult journey from Japan, even its captured islands to the coast of the US with the danger of being destroyed on the way. So far as is known if this plan was to succeed, there must have been enclosed with the shipment, the plans to the Amerika bomber, otherwise there wouldn't have been the necessary range.

 

[delcyros]

What a question!
But just for fun, here we go:
A) Germans never seriously intended to build a nuke. Heisenberg did miscalculated the critical mass. Right, there were more scientist in germany which knew about this error, but nothing happans. Hitler cuts down the fundings of nuclear research -but they managed to come VERY close to an working nuclear power plant. As the Farm Hall reports indicate that a correct solution of a nuke was found in within a single week of intensive discussion. However, some doubt that Heisenberg wanted to build a bomb -more a weapon of beeing- for Nazis. Others did suceed in a even more horrible weapon project: From 1943 on IG Fareben tried to make c. Botulinum suitable for bomb use. Botulinum is the most dangerous material known to mankind (except maybe physical anti energy). It was the first biological-weapon. 1000 g would be -theoretically- enough to kill millions of people. B) How could germans deploy troops to japan mainland? Against a much superior japanese fleet? (remember all the carriers and -yamato- class battleships)
No way, that couldn´t happen. Simple Destruction only.

 

[mosquitoman]

If the Japanese wanted to get a nuke to America it could load a Seiran with the bomb attached and put it in one of their subs which had a hangar, it would have a small chance of not getting shot down. But, think of the consequences.

 

[trackend]

Hi Delcyros welcome on board
I think the first biological weapons where employed in the middle ages during sieges it was quite common to lob rotten animal or combatants carcasses over the walls to try to spread maladies .
If the Germans didn't intend to build an A bomb how come they had such a big heavy water programme. somehow I couldn't imagine Adolf not wanting to have such a power at his command and I don't mean to produce electricity

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

they were tryin to develop an A-bomb...........

 

[cheddar cheese]

We know...

 

[delcyros]

Jup, You´re right. B-weapons are to be used since VERY ancient times.
(indeed, I had an excavation at Monkodonja/Croatia, an early to middle bronze age settlement/fortification (around 1900 BC-1200BC, excavation still under progress)and it seems, after all, that the only water source was poisoned -well there were huge amounts of animal bones (mostly bos taurus)- somehow. So you are right, Botulinum wasn´t the first B-weapon
Anyway it was too much a danger to the germans as well. I have read somewhere (try google) that a He-177 was/should be refitted in the closing months of WW2 to carry a nuclear bomb. That should happen at around Prague, but again I doubt. There is simply no reliable source to proof that claim. I doubt that Hitler was even informed about the nuke. Probably not. Heavy water has not much to do with enrichment of Uranium, but you neeed it for other things (here again the Uranbrenner of Kummersdorf), which have more in common with power plants (and of course, IF you have a working power plant you can easily get the nuclear material you need to build a nuke). And think of all the coal which would have been saved for other needs (weapon production). But all the ressources could have made a greater impact eslewhere, I think. Back to the topic: A9/A 10 ICBM against Japan /maybe also US terretory? They wouldn´t have been very reliable. They would have costed years in development (A9 was in progress with A4b) and you could only hope to hit one of Japans isles! Imagine a nuke warhead exploding somwhere at Peenemünde during a failed rocket launch in 1948! And how to ferry all the troops and tanks??? Impossible for the germans. Look at their sweet tiny fleet (exceptions would be granted for the type XXI submarines), they could never provide protection for their transporters with KM....[/i]

 

[mosquitoman]

If the Germans had taken Russia all the way to Siberia, it would be a comparitively short hop away. Alaska would have been under threat aswell

 

[Nonskimmer]

And everything south and east of it.

 

[mosquitoman]

Good point

 

[delcyros]

Could be a short trip from Wladiwostok to Japan, agreed. But
1.) You have to bring your tanks to that point (around 10000 miles with the
transsibirian railway-which was in the 40´s the only way to transport heavy vehicles)
2.) You need ships (no plane could carry a Panther or Tiger)
3.) You need to protect them against
A) Japans superior cruiser and destroyer fleet (Long Lance torps.!!!)
B) Japans superior (in numbers) air force operating from the homeland
C) Kamikaze
D) Submarines
E) Carrier based strikes
F) Heavy surface Forces, superior in numbers and Quality
And remember, it takes a lot of time to build a fleet! There was no possibility for Germany to support large armed forces that far away with all it needs: ammo, fuel, food, resupply and it would be hard, if not impossible to control strike ops from Germany. (Support by air wasn´t possible for Stalingrad, not to mention a supply line across Sibiria)

 

[marseille jr]

Still, I'm quite convinced them germans would have beaten them japanese. In 46 the japânese would have had the kikka and rocket planes, and the germans would have rocket planes too the faster me262, ta184, he162, ar 234, a jet driven dive bomber and the first long range stealth flying wing bombers (the B2 was inspired by this design). As for pistons fighters, the japanese had formidable planes but they lacked HP's, except for the ki-84 maybe, to compete with ta-152's or do-335's. And I do think Hitler wouldn't have minded to obliterate japan with atomic bombs if he had had them.

 

[evangilder]

Just an aside, the B-2 was not inspired by the German flying wing. Jack Northrop had been working on the idea for a long time. It is said that Jack was workign with the design as far back as 1923. The first of his flying wings, the N1M was first flown in 1940, followed by the N9M. After that came the XB-35 and B-49.

There has been speculation that German spies in the US were reporting the work of Northrop back to Germany which led to the Horten Ho V, which bears a striking similarity to the Northrop N9M.

Which was first is not known with any precision, but to say that the B2 came from the Horten design is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Nonskimmer]

I agree. The Northrop design was original.

 

[marseille jr]

Which was first is not known with any precision, but to say that the B2 came from the Horten design is a bit of a stretch

It must be said however, that Northrop engineers did pay an enriching visit to the museum were the Horten was stored. There certainly WAS a lot of influence. The German Horten was far ahead of its time and a brilliant piece of engineering. It is said it was to be used to carry an atomic bomb to the USA and return afterwards.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Horton would not have had the range for that. And if you are talking about the Ho-229, it is in the National Air and Space Museum in Washington DC but is not out for viewing at the tiem because it is being restored.

Gotha Ho-229

Origin: Gothaer Waggonfabrik AG. to Horten design (see note below)
Type: Single seat fighter/bomber

Engines:
Two Junkers Jumo 004B turbojets
Thrust: 1,980lb (900kg)

Dimensions:
Span 16.75m
Length 7.47m
Height 2.80m

Weights:
Empty: 10,140lbs (4600kg)
Max. loaded: 19,840lb (9000kg)

Speed:
607mph (977km/h)
Ceiling:
52,500ft (16,000m)

Range:
1,970 miles (3170km) at 393mph (635km/h) with two drop tanks

Armaments: Planned
Four Mk 103 or Mk 108 cannon
Plus
Two 1,000kg bombs

Comments:
First flown in January 1945, the Ho 229 was the innovative design of Walter and Reimar Horten, both former Luftwaffe officers. The test programme showed the 229 to have outstanding speed and handling characteristics but developement was halted when US troops overran the research facility. Some dispute has arisen over whether the 229 should be classified as the Go 229 or Ho 229. Since Gothar was supposed to build 229 and didn't really design it, I'm arbitrarily going with the Ho 229 designation in honor of the designers.
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ho229.html

If you are talking about the Horton Ho-XVIIIA-B then yes it was designed for the "Amerika Bomber" program.

Ho-XVIIIA

In 1944 the RLM issued a requirement for an aircraft with a range of 11000 km (6835 miles) and a bomb load of 4000 kg (8818 lbs). This bomber was to be able to fly from Germany to New York City and back without refueling. Five of Germany's top aircraft companies had submitted designs, but none of them met the range requirements for this Amerika Bomber. Their proposals were redesigned and resubmitted at the second competition, but nothing had changed. The Hortens were not invited to submit a proposal because it was thought that they were only interested in fighter aircraft.
After the Hortens learned of these design failures, they the went about designing the XVIII A Amerika Bomber. During the Christmas 1944 holidays, Reimar and Walter Horten worked on the design specifications for their all-wing bomber. They drew up a rough draft and worked on weight calculations, allowing for fuel, crew, armaments, landing gear and bomb load. Ten variations were eventually worked out, each using a different number of existing turbojets. Several of the designs were to be powered by four or six Heinkel-Hirth He S 011jet engines, and several of the others were designed around eight BMW 003A or eight Junker Jumo 004B turbojets.
The version that the Hortens thought would work best would utilize six Jumo 004B turbojets, which were buried in the fuselage and exausted over the rear of the aircraft. They were fed by air intakes located in the wing's leading edge. To save weight they thought of using a landing gear that could be jettisoned immediately after takeoff (with the additional help of rocket boosters) and landing on some kind of skid. The Ho XVIII A was to be built mainly of wood and held together with a special carbon based glue. As a result, the huge flying wing should go largely undetected by radar.
The Hortens were told to make a presentation for their Amerika Bomber design on Febuary 25, 1945 in Berlin. The meeting was attended by representatives of the five aircraft companies who originally submitted ideas for the competition. No one challenged their assertion that their flying wing bomber could get the job done. A few days later the Hortens were told to report to Reichsmarshall Göring, who wanted to talk to the brothers personally about their proposed Amerika Bomber. There they were told that they were to work with the Junkers company in building the aircraft.
Several days later Reimar and Walter Horten met with the Junkers engineers, who had also invited some Messerschmitt engineers. Suddenly it seemed that the Horten's design was to be worked on by committee. The Junkers and Messerschmitt engineers were unwilling to go with the design that the Hortens presented several days earlier. Instead, the committee wanted to place a huge vertical fin and rudder to the rear of the Ho XVIII A. Reimar Horten was angry, as this would add many more man-hours, plus it would create drag and thus reduce the range. The committee also wanted to place the engines beneath the wing, which would create additional drag and reduce the range even further. After two days of discussion, they chose a design that had huge vertical fins, with the cockpit built into the fin's leading edge. Six Jumo 004A jet engines were slung under the wing, three to a nacelle on each side. The bomb bay would be located between the two nacelles, and the tricycle landing gear would also be stored in the same area. The committee would present the final design to the RML and recommended that it be built in the former mining tunnels in the Harz Mountains. Reimar was unhappy with the final design, so he went about redesigning the aircraft, to be known as the Ho XVIII B.
Span: 40 m (131' 4") Length: Unknown Max. Speed: 900 km/h (559 mph)
http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho18a.html

XVIII-B

After being dissatisfied with the committee designed Ho XVIII A, Reimar Horten redesigned the flying wing Amerika Bomber. The proposed Ho XVIII B had a three man crew which sat upright in a bubble-type canopy near the apex of the wing. There were two fixed main landing gear assemblies with two He S 011 turbojets mounted to each side. During flight, the tires would be covered by doors to help cut down on air resistance and drag, a nose wheel being considered not necessary. Overall, the aircraft would have weighed about 35 tons fully loaded. Fuel was to be stored in the wing so that no auxiliary fuel tanks would be required. It was estimated that the Ho XVIII B would have a range of 11000 km (6835 miles), a service ceiling of 16 km (52492 feet) and a round-trip endurance of 27 hours. Although armament was considered unnecessary, Reimar Horten proposed that two MK 108 30mm cannon could be mounted directly below the cockpit. It was decided that construction was to be done in two bomb-proof hangers near Kala, which had concrete roofs 5.6 meters (18.4 feet) thick. In addition, extra long runways had been constructed so the aircraft could be test flown there too. Work was supposed to start immediately, and the RLM expected the Ho XVIII B to be built by the fall of 1945, which Reimar Horten reported to be impossible. At any rate, Germany surrendered two months later before construction could begin.
Span: 40 m (131' 4") Length: unknown Max. Speed: 850 km/h (528 mph)
http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho18b.html

 

[delcyros]

There are two independent and parallel developments:
1.) Northrops flying wings
2.) Hortens flying wings.

The first flying wing of Horten, the Ho-I glider flew for the first time in jule 1933. Probable we don´t see much influence here from Northrop.
Northrops flying wings as the Ho-I suffered from bad flying characteristics, esspeccially at low speed. We would say that these designs were pretty unstable. It wasn´t prior to june 1937 that the Horten brothers proved that a bell shaped lift distribution makes a flying wing configuration stable. Test verified this on the Ho-II. The Ho-II m of 1938 was the first piston dirven flying wing of the Hortens. In 1936 they build the very first plastic plane, the Hols der Teufel, a plane in normal layout and the 1936 (!) Ho-Va also was made almost entirely from plastics. The Ho Vb and Ho V c derivates from the Ho-Va.
The influence goes from Germany to the US and back, that´s what I believe happened. A 1937 edition of the New York Times shows a picture of the Ho-II Glider (D-10-131) in flight and the title: "German Flying Wing over Berlin" Northrop got the development contract after this date. Could it be that there is a connection?
Later in the war, in the mid early 40´s Northrop build unstable flying wings, and this could indeed led to the enforced Ho-IX-project.
Northrop never took notice of the bell shaped lift distribution even at a time when Horten himself wrote him a letter from Argentinia in the mid 50´s...