Personally I believe there was some cross influence going on here.
Germany vs Japan
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delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Agreed. Cross influence may explain the allowed development of these unconventional and therefore "risky" concepts.
The Ho-IX as well as the Northrop flying wings count for me to the timeless beautiful designs.
The Ho-IX as well as the Northrop flying wings count for me to the timeless beautiful designs.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
There is little evidence of cross pollenation of ideas. After the war I'm sure data was examined and considered at least. As for a connection to a published article of the Horton aircraft and the issueance of a contract to Northrop - most likely - but it would be to counter a percieved advance by a possable adversary. It does not infer any connection between the two designs/data.
All flying wing designs are unstable logitudinally, stall easily, and when stalled are unrecoverable - even the Horton. Stall prevention/recovery was mandatory in the Air Force at the time of the Northrup Flying Wings and poor stall behavior was a major issue in it's demise. It was only when computer (fly-by-wire) systems that could prevent flight conditions leading to stalling that a flying wings were practical/safe enough for normal service. This is the reason when the B-2 in slow flight will have it's split alerons open and creating drag on the furthest aft portion of the aircraft.
wmaxt
All flying wing designs are unstable logitudinally, stall easily, and when stalled are unrecoverable - even the Horton. Stall prevention/recovery was mandatory in the Air Force at the time of the Northrup Flying Wings and poor stall behavior was a major issue in it's demise. It was only when computer (fly-by-wire) systems that could prevent flight conditions leading to stalling that a flying wings were practical/safe enough for normal service. This is the reason when the B-2 in slow flight will have it's split alerons open and creating drag on the furthest aft portion of the aircraft.
wmaxt
wmaxt said:
There are just too many similarities. There was a lot of espionage going on at the time. They were 100% indipendent designs but I am sure ideas were stolen from one another.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
It's always possible, however the US was so isolationist before the war it wasn't even well known in our government that the Nazi's had built up their military to the extent they did. It's embarrassing but we really had our heads in the sand - what you don't see, can't hurt you.
I guess it could have gone from the US to Germany but the Hortons seemed to be at least as far along as Northrup.There is also the rule "Function defines form and vice-versa".
Before the war, It's possible but I don't think it was likely. After the war, I'm positive material was studied and anything useful would have been incorporated.
wmaxt
I would not be surprised if information leaked into Germany. The Germans had an extensive spy agency up and running.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
True enough.
wmaxt
P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
I dont belive their would be a great war, i just think they would have divided the land: Germany one side; japan the other; But we didnt let them do that eh?!
P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
I believe German only because of the tactics and weapons. However the V-1 was a lousy weapon, only inovative for its time, the V-2 was never going to win the war either. Both were no more then terror weapons.
As for the Jets, England was developing jets at the same time. The Germans were just the first to put them into service.
As for the Jets, England was developing jets at the same time. The Germans were just the first to put them into service.
No actually the Me-262 was the first operational jet fighter. The Me-262 saw service for the first time in June 1944 and the the Meteor in July 1944.
EK262 was actually an operational testing unit that tested the aircraft in combat in June 1944.
I'm being picky but the RAF have training squadrons with new aircraft before they get converted to operation squadrons. The EKdo 26 was one such squadron in Germany but the Meteor was in the RAF training squadron before the Me-262. I'll find the squadron somewhere.
If you wish but I am sure the Me-262 saw operational status first.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I will assume that neither force posseses a nuke. A battle between Japan and Germany would be a maritime battle.
A German fleet would have to operate thousands of miles from Europe and then crack the Malay Barrier. Considering the air and naval forces Japan could put into that area, German fleets would have been crushed. The only hope they would have would to have a large number of aircraft carriers. Not one of Germanies vaunted airplanes ever flew and operated from an aircraft carrier. Nor can anyone in their wildest dreams think the Germans in only a few years, could build, train and operate a naval air arm the size that would be needed.
I also find it hard to believe that the Germans could open up a front in Siberia/Manchuria and successfully support it. There was only one railline available, thousands of miles long, and it would have been easy for the Japanese to shut it down.
And if anyone has an idea of basing the Luftwaffe in China, look at how complex it was for the US 10th, 14th and 20th AF's to operate there in 1944 and 45 when the japanese were on the verge of collpase.
I'd say that Japan could hold its own against the Germans.
A German fleet would have to operate thousands of miles from Europe and then crack the Malay Barrier. Considering the air and naval forces Japan could put into that area, German fleets would have been crushed. The only hope they would have would to have a large number of aircraft carriers. Not one of Germanies vaunted airplanes ever flew and operated from an aircraft carrier. Nor can anyone in their wildest dreams think the Germans in only a few years, could build, train and operate a naval air arm the size that would be needed.
I also find it hard to believe that the Germans could open up a front in Siberia/Manchuria and successfully support it. There was only one railline available, thousands of miles long, and it would have been easy for the Japanese to shut it down.
And if anyone has an idea of basing the Luftwaffe in China, look at how complex it was for the US 10th, 14th and 20th AF's to operate there in 1944 and 45 when the japanese were on the verge of collpase.
I'd say that Japan could hold its own against the Germans.
The only way that I could see a Germany/Japan conflict would be after Russia, England, and the US were out of the war. It would have to happen in the Manchuria area or maybe India. I dont think that it would have been to much of a problem because Russia had plenty of recourses for the Germans to use. Again though as you said syscom I doubt it could have ever happened anyhow.
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
It would depend on Russian people and resources. With the addition of Russian men and machines Germany would be impossible to halt (at least by the Japanese). If Germany could land forces on the Japanese mainland it would be all over
Battle of Halhin Gol (1939)
This incident had a massive effect on WW2 and shows soviet forces against japanese forces in 1939
Losses on both sides were heavy, and the soviets won and the japanese leadership agreed with the existing border
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Japanese_Border_War_(1939)
Influence on World War II
Although this engagement is little-known in the West, it was to have profound implications for the future conduct of the World War II.
The incident convinced the Imperial General Staff in Tokyo that the policy of the "strike north" faction, which wanted to seize Siberia as far as Lake Baikal, for its resources, was untenable, as the Red Army was too strong. Instead the "strike south" faction, which wanted to seize the resources of South East Asia, especially the oil of the Dutch East Indies, gained the ascendancy and this policy was put into effect, leading directly to the attack on Pearl Harbor two and a half years later in December 1941.
It was the first victory for the famed Soviet general, Georgy Zhukov. The battle experience gained by the Siberian army, was put to good use when in December 1941 outside Moscow, under the command of Zhukov, Siberian divisions spearheaded the first successful Soviet counter-offensive against the German invasion of 1941. The decision to move the divisions from Siberia was aided by the Soviet's masterspy Richard Sorge who was able to alert the Soviet government that the Japanese were looking south and were unlikely to launch another attack against Siberia in the immediate future. Sorge also gave Stalin the exact date of Operation Barbarossa.
In addition, as a result of this battle, Japan was reluctant to attack the Soviet Union directly through the course of the war, preferring eventually to fight the United States. As neither side of this battle were open about their opinions to its result, Adolf Hitler had no idea when he openly declared war on the United States. He had hoped of gaining Japanese support against the Soviet Union with this act, unaware that his ally was unwilling to do so because of the previous encounter.
Also interesting is Operation August Storm, which shows soviet forces fight japanese forces in 1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Storm
This gives an idea of what might have happened if the Axis had won and Hitler had attacked Japan from the former soviet union.
Though it would be immediately obvious what Hitler was doing if he started building up forces near Manchuria.
This incident had a massive effect on WW2 and shows soviet forces against japanese forces in 1939
Losses on both sides were heavy, and the soviets won and the japanese leadership agreed with the existing border
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Japanese_Border_War_(1939)
Influence on World War II
Although this engagement is little-known in the West, it was to have profound implications for the future conduct of the World War II.
The incident convinced the Imperial General Staff in Tokyo that the policy of the "strike north" faction, which wanted to seize Siberia as far as Lake Baikal, for its resources, was untenable, as the Red Army was too strong. Instead the "strike south" faction, which wanted to seize the resources of South East Asia, especially the oil of the Dutch East Indies, gained the ascendancy and this policy was put into effect, leading directly to the attack on Pearl Harbor two and a half years later in December 1941.
It was the first victory for the famed Soviet general, Georgy Zhukov. The battle experience gained by the Siberian army, was put to good use when in December 1941 outside Moscow, under the command of Zhukov, Siberian divisions spearheaded the first successful Soviet counter-offensive against the German invasion of 1941. The decision to move the divisions from Siberia was aided by the Soviet's masterspy Richard Sorge who was able to alert the Soviet government that the Japanese were looking south and were unlikely to launch another attack against Siberia in the immediate future. Sorge also gave Stalin the exact date of Operation Barbarossa.
In addition, as a result of this battle, Japan was reluctant to attack the Soviet Union directly through the course of the war, preferring eventually to fight the United States. As neither side of this battle were open about their opinions to its result, Adolf Hitler had no idea when he openly declared war on the United States. He had hoped of gaining Japanese support against the Soviet Union with this act, unaware that his ally was unwilling to do so because of the previous encounter.
Also interesting is Operation August Storm, which shows soviet forces fight japanese forces in 1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Storm
This gives an idea of what might have happened if the Axis had won and Hitler had attacked Japan from the former soviet union.
Though it would be immediately obvious what Hitler was doing if he started building up forces near Manchuria.
