Germany vs Japan

[Thorlifter]

My little wifey likes to give me questions to think about and she gave me this one......

Who would have won between Germany and Japan.

I thought for a minute a came up with this.

If they would have stayed out of jungles, Germany would have easily won. The only advantage Japan had was the IJN. I'll get the that in a minute.

The airforce was no comparison. In 1941/42, the Germans had the 109 and 190, which were light years better than the Zero. Neither side had heavy bombers so that is a wash. Transports/recon are probably even. And Japan was not trying to advance their technology at all compared to the Germans.

The ground forces were relatively even until it came to armor and big guns. Japan had no heavy tanks to speak of and Germany's field guns were top notch, especially the 88. Also, can you imagine Japan's tanks going up against Rommel and the Afrika Korps?

Now on to the navy. I would have loved to see the Graf Spee, Bismark, Prinz Eugen, and Tirpitz go up against the Yamato and Musashi. Gotta give the advantage to the Japanese with these two battleship and the fact they developed aircraft carriers. I would give this advantage heavily to Japan if it wasn't for one thing, Germany's U-boats. Still, overall, Japan wins in the navy.

So what do you guys think?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I added a poll.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Germany

 

[syscom3]

And how do you suppose the Germans could get to Japan to defeat them?

Nukes aside....... it may end up with a Japanese victory simply because of the vast logisitical lines the Germans would need to contend with.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And how do you suppose the Germans could get to Japan to defeat them?

Nukes aside....... it may end up with a Japanese victory simply because of the vast logisitical lines the Germans would need to contend with.

Through China via Turkey, Iran and maybe Afghanistan and India. Hard to say how that would pan out with the British (an entirely different WW2 scenario).

 

[Lucky13]

How and where would they fight each other? Would this have pappened if Germany had conquered Russia? That's what I'd like to know....
Need to give this a good thinking though.

 

[Lucky13]

You just jump the que you, you fly FLYBOJ!

 

[delcyros]

As long as it belongs to the navy, the IJN toasts the KM, hands down. Yamato alone could take on Bismarck and Tirpitz under favourable conditions and Yamato Musashi together probably could wipe out the entire heavy KM fleet of 2 BC´s, 2 BB´s and 3 PBB´s (assuming the Yamato´s doesn´t get mission killed by volume of fire). The 3 german CA´s don´t stand a chance against 18 japanese CA´s, no way. The whole campaign belongs to the navy as it should be a naval campaign (with a huge geographical advantage for Japan). German submarines could become a potent force equalizer but IJN ASW would develop counter tactics (as it historically did once US subs became a serious thread) and the IJN has a huge number of ASW vessels.
I am not sure how the Luftwaffe would deal with well trained japanese 1941 CV airgroups. The -109 and -190 are arguably better, not certainly or with lightyears advantage. The -109 particularely misses the range to become any factor in airbattles.
Once the time advances, Germany get´s improvements which become to serious to be ignored: Long range bombers (Me-264), Fritz-X guided APC bombs (which may even defeat Yamato´s main armour deck) and a proper delivery system (either long range He-177 or medium range Do-217), finally the nuke and a proper delivery system...
However, neither side may mount a successfully invasion without help of other major powers...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You just jump the que you, you fly FLYBOJ!

BTW Nice Siggy!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

However, neither side may mount a successfully invasion without help of other major powers...

In this scenario, that's the key...

 

[Lucky13]

BTW Nice Siggy!

Thanks, but it's all thanks to Wurger....

 

[Gnomey]

Agreed about the invasion help. If what was purely naval I would say the Japanese however if it was mainly land based (Manchuria as the fighting ground?) I would back the Germans to win (particularly late in the war - similar situation to the Russian invasion of the Area in summer 1945).

 

[syscom3]

Just to point out.....

1) Any movement of forces via the Trans siberian railroad, would mean exposing your forces to a single rail line thousands of miles long, located in a very inhospitable regions of the world.

2) A naval attack would need to go through several choke points at which the fleet would be at risk.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

If it was a naval battle, then Japan would win. What did they have, 6-10 carriers?

What did Germany have? 1 carrier, not finished.

In WWII, carriers decided the action many times. Even if Yamamoto and Bismark sidled alongside each other and had a rip roaring battle, they would both have been sunk before the end off it by cheeky naval aircraft. Germany didn't have to the carriers to launch aircraft, so Japan would sink the Bismark, any other german battle ship, and the 1 carrier Germany had.
With sub's, the situation gets more complicated. If Germany gets past Japan's sonar defences and it's subs, then Yamamoto and Japan's carriers might be lost. But if Japan's subs and anti-shipping aircraft can keep the U-boats at bay, then Japan might win the day. Germany would need more carriers, at least, I think, to win a naval battle.

On land, poor Japan would probably lose, unless the Germans couldn't land on Japan's shores. They never tried mass assaults of beachs like the allies did. They could have nuked Japan, and then their troubles would be over. But if Japan maintained air superiority, then they might stop that threat.

I don't know if Japan or Germany had the better air force. They both had top shot pilots. But Germany had the FW-190, and Japan had the Zero. But in 1946, if Japan had tried to get the "Frank" and "George" into the sky in large numbers, and maybe a few jets, they might have a chance agains't the Ta-152 and Me 262.

I don't know what to vote for. Why did Germany want to be friends with Japan in WWII anyway? They were so biased about the "Master Race", and the Japanese were orientals. They were about as vulnerable as the Jew's in that area.

If Germany had decided to turn agains't Japan, would they have put mass numbers of the Japanese in concentration camps, and eventually killed millions of them?

 

[Heinz]

Voted Germany, I also think their production of materials was superior to keep supply up.

 

[Thorlifter]

In WWII, carriers decided the action many times. Even if Yamamoto and Bismark sidled alongside each other and had a rip roaring battle, they would both have been sunk before the end off it by cheeky naval aircraft.

It's the Yamato, not the Yamamoto.....but I get what your saying. I agree with almost everything you said. While the sailors on the Bismarck were first class, I don't think the Bismarck (and others) could have done too much to the Yamato. 15 inch guns vs 18 inch guns! In a one on one slugfest, I don't think it would have been close. Sure other ships and maybe planes would be involved which changes the dynamics of everything! I was just imagining in my head the two big Japanese BB's vs. the big 4 the Germans had. Even if you threw in some support cruisers and destoyers, the Japanese BB's would have quickly eliminated the 4 German big ships, then it would be all guns to bear on what was left.

As far as the airforce's go, I just don't see the Japanese advanses being anywhere similar to the Germans. But here is where I need some more education. Was the "Frank" and "George" anything even close to the TA-152, D-9, or Me-262?

 

[Glider]

I went for Germany for three main reasons

1) The German Arny would be way ahead of the Japanese Army
2) The German Airforce has a significant lead over the Japanese AF in the early/mid war years. Later Japanese Aircraft Ki84/Shinden etc would be a good match for the Germans 109/190's but the Germans have the advantage at the start.
3) There is no doubt that the Japanese Navy would do to the German Navy what the German Army would do to the Japanese Army. But, and its a big but, the German U Boats would wreck havoc with Japans supplies and this would make the difference.

 

[timshatz]

I'm just having trouble figuring out how these two are going to get at each other. It's not like they're right next door. Hell, they're on opposite sides of the planet. And it's a big planet.

How they get together is going to dictate who wins. Ground war, Germans. Sea war, Japan.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Im with Glider on this based off of his 3 points.

1. Army - Germany would destroy the Japanese. The Germans were first class soldiers with good discipline and great NCOs. The German Armour would descimate what little Japanese tanks there were. The German Artillery was also 1st rate compared to the Japanese. All in all Germany has the advantage on the ground.

2. Airforce - The Luftwaffe was a better airforce through and through. Yeah Japan had some advantages in some areas but overall the Luftwaffe was more advanced and had better aircraft in in my opinion had better pilots.

3. Navy - Obviously the Japanese have the advantage here but I see Germany still taking out Japans supply lines with the U-Boots and also maybe succesfully sinking many BBs and CVs with the U-Boots as well.

Either way you put it I dont think either side would be able to be a large threat to one another because of distance but if it came down to a land battle, Germany would take it and therefore win the war between these two countries.

 

[syscom3]

Im with Glider on this based off of his 3 points.

1. Army - Germany would destroy the Japanese. The Germans were first class soldiers with good discipline and great NCOs. The German Armour would descimate what little Japanese tanks there were. The German Artillery was also 1st rate compared to the Japanese. All in all Germany has the advantage on the ground.

2. Airforce - The Luftwaffe was a better airforce through and through. Yeah Japan had some advantages in some areas but overall the Luftwaffe was more advanced and had better aircraft in in my opinion had better pilots.

3. Navy - Obviously the Japanese have the advantage here but I see Germany still taking out Japans supply lines with the U-Boots and also maybe succesfully sinking many BBs and CVs with the U-Boots as well.

Either way you put it I dont think either side would be able to be a large threat to one another because of distance but if it came down to a land battle, Germany would take it and therefore win the war between these two countries.

I tend to agree with you on most accounts, except one.

Tanks and heavy vehicles were pretty much useless in many places in the PTO and CBI.

The only place they could be used (in northern China, they would have supply issues due to their only line of supply being cut from time to time.