Germany vs Japan

[ToughOmbre]

Germany in a walkover.

Japanese machines and equipment were junk in comparison to Germany's.

And the U-boats would do to Japan what the American subs did - sink everything afloat.

But the geography does make a hypothetical conflict interesting.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I tend to agree with you on most accounts, except one.

Tanks and heavy vehicles were pretty much useless in many places in the PTO and CBI.

The only place they could be used (in northern China, they would have supply issues due to their only line of supply being cut from time to time.

This is a hypothetical conflict so in that case it does not have to take place in the jungle. It can take place in Europe, Russia, wherever...

 

[WoundedKnee]

Neither side had heavy bombers so that is a wash.

Well, the Germans had their FW200C-2, with an engine upgrade this aircraft would be a reasonable heavy bomber.. Also, if the Germans laid a bit more effort in the He-177 Greif, they would have had a very good bomber..

Yay, first post here

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well, the Germans had their FW200C-2, with an engine upgrade this aircraft would be a reasonable heavy bomber.. Also, if the Germans laid a bit more effort in the He-177 Greif, they would have had a very good bomber..

Yay, first post here

AND IT'S YOUR LAST @SSHOLE!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Oh I see you took down the picture you first posted. You're a putz. Go away and never return!

 

[Lucky13]

 

[T4.H]

Less or more a ridiculous discussion.
Both sides couldn't reach each other.

OK, they would start on one continent.

80% or more of all material which was produced on allied side in WWII was send to europe!

Army:
Both armys have had the best "common" soldiers in WWII (I think). The NCO's of the german army were the best of WWII. Both sides fight with the same modern tactics (speed, etc.). The japanese army was never build up to fight on a continent. They used bicycles in malysia! They have had only light tanks! They wouldn't have had the material and industrial power to win against germany. Germany would again (like in russia) start the war with 100.000 cars, trucks, tanks and so on. And with 10.000 different types, subtypes sub-subtypes and so on.
And with the same problems. The japanese army would be totally outnumbered. Two, three weeks, not more and...

And if the war would start 1944?
The german material predominance would be much more worse.

Airforce:
Both sides have had the best skilled pilots in WWII. Perhaps the german pilots were a little bit better. The japanese airforce would be outnumbered.
Most of the japanese aircrafts were unprotected. Less or more only some hits, perhaps even one everywhere and they didn't come back. No chance!
The ju87 as flying artillery...horror, pure horror.
Two to three weeks...
And if the war would start 1944?
The german predominance would be much more worse.


Navy:
1941, the german navy would be totally outnumbered, the DD where only ****, the light cruisers...Hmmm
And the rest?
Really good, but totally outnumbered!
No chance, especially against carrier-groups.
1941 germany didn't have enough submarines, the torpedos were...lets say bad or more worse.
1944 germany would have had enough "diving boats". This would be devastating for the japanese navy and merchant vessels, but they couldn't rescue the surface ships (even when they have all radar on board).
Whith enough XXI submarines...who knows...

2 to 1 for germany.
Armys win wars, airforces and navys support only.

 

[Gnomey]

Im with Glider on this based off of his 3 points.

1. Army - Germany would destroy the Japanese. The Germans were first class soldiers with good discipline and great NCOs. The German Armour would descimate what little Japanese tanks there were. The German Artillery was also 1st rate compared to the Japanese. All in all Germany has the advantage on the ground.

2. Airforce - The Luftwaffe was a better airforce through and through. Yeah Japan had some advantages in some areas but overall the Luftwaffe was more advanced and had better aircraft in in my opinion had better pilots.

3. Navy - Obviously the Japanese have the advantage here but I see Germany still taking out Japans supply lines with the U-Boots and also maybe succesfully sinking many BBs and CVs with the U-Boots as well.

Either way you put it I dont think either side would be able to be a large threat to one another because of distance but if it came down to a land battle, Germany would take it and therefore win the war between these two countries.

I would agree with three points as well. But the point still stands that they would have to get to each other to begin to fight it out and where would that be - in Russia/Northern China or where the Americans, British and the Aussies fought them?

Oh I see you took down the picture you first posted. You're a putz. Go away and never return!

What was it?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would agree with three points as well. But the point still stands that they would have to get to each other to begin to fight it out and where would that be - in Russia/Northern China or where the Americans, British and the Aussies fought them?

Thats what I said at the end of my post as well.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What was it?

He posted a pretty insulting picture on his first post in response to thornlifter's post - freggin idiot....

 

[Soren]

Germany wins, and here's why:


1. German infantry was the best trained equipped on the planet. The deployment of excellently trained troops equipped with Stg.44's in the tropical forrests would absolutely decimate any opponent - and remember the Japanese Imp. Army was carrying bolt action rifles.

2. The German armored force was far more modern and well equipped, the Japanese were no match in this area. - And despite what Syscom3 says tanks would prove important in the PTO, and the Germans had the best light, medium heavy tanks on the planet - the Japs didn't even have anything which could cope with the Panzer IV.

3. The German LuftWaffe was considerably better trained equipped throughout the war, only the Ki-84 was on equal footing with most of Germany's piston fighters -but- the Germans had Jet fighters. The Germans also build some great long range bombers and special purpose a/c, the best in the world IMO - didn't recieve funding and therefore didn't see service though.

 

[syscom3]

Germany wins, and here's why:


1. German infantry was the best trained equipped on the planet. The deployment of excellently trained troops equipped with Stg.44's in the tropical forrests would absolutely decimate any opponent - and remember the Japanese Imp. Army was carrying bolt action rifles.

The German army was lacking in logistics. In this theater, logistics IS the single most important element. Dont jump to conclusions that the German Army would be any better than the US (and Aussies and Brits) that had to fight them.

2. The German armored force was far more modern and well equipped, the Japanese were no match in this area. - And despite what Syscom3 says tanks would prove important in the PTO, and the Germans had the best light, medium heavy tanks on the planet - the Japs didn't even have anything which could cope with the Panzer IV.

Again Soren doesnt read maps. Tanks were of quite limited use in the jungles. Mostly trackless dense forests, swamps and mud. The tanks were uselfull in some of the island invasions as they were able to get up close to bunkers and fortifications. But that assumes the KM and GA had the amphib capability in the first place.

In Manchuria and N China, they would be of some use, but the size of an army is dictated by its logistics, and the GA wouldnt be able to support more than a few armoured divisions. And then they run into the problems of what to do in the mountainous and hilly terrains that favored the defender.

3. The German LuftWaffe was considerably better trained equipped throughout the war, only the Ki-84 was on equal footing with most of Germany's piston fighters -but- the Germans had Jet fighters. The Germans also build some great long range bombers and special purpose a/c, the best in the world IMO - didn't recieve funding and therefore didn't see service though.

Most LW fighters didnt have the range needed for the theater.

 

[Thorlifter]

Ok, let say it was going to be all naval. Like I said, the Japaense win this hands down. But if the Germans 'knew' they were going to attack the Japanese, they would have done what they did so well with their army......adapt. I believe they would have developed Aircraft carriers and an airplane with better range. Maybe a sea version of the FW-190, like what the British did with the Hurricane and Spitfire. At least until something more suited was developed, like what the U.S. did with the Hellcat.

Yes we know its a silly discussion, but I find it fun to imagine how it may have played out. I feel if Germany had won in Europe and won the war, they wouldn't have tollorated the Japanese very long.

 

[Soren]

LoL Syscom3 ! I think you should read up about some of the engagments in the PTO where tanks were absolutely crucial to success !

And quit thinking about the lack of amphibian vehicles, if the war was to be in the PTO then these would be made in piles by the Germans - the Germans throughout the war built what they needed when they needed it, that Hitler prevented their use many times is another matter. If carrier's were needed then carrier's would be built - it would've proven a very small task for the Germans, esp. considering the extremely advanced U-boats they fielded.

And yes the German Wehrmacht troops equipped with Stg.44's would prove imensly more effective in combat than either the Brits, Aussies or US soldiers. The Stg.44 is superb for close range fighting as that in jungles and Ideal for medium range fighting - also the higher power of Stg.44's 7.92x33 Kurz round means that hiding behind trees wouldn't be an option for the enemy, the rounds penetrating thick oak trees like a hot knife through butter.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

It's the Yamato, not the Yamamoto.....but I get what your saying.

Thanks Thorlifter!

Thinking about it more, yeah, the Luftwaffe would have probably won again'st the Japanese airforce. The Japanese didn't have any jets, and the one they were planning on making was totally based on the me 262!

What if Japan, instead of Pearl Harbor, had tried a sneak attack on the German battle ships and Carrier? I suppose they were never in the same place, at the same time. And sailing in the Atlantic in secrecy is harder than in the Pacific. Still, if Roosevelt and his commanders could be slow in reacting to danger, so could Hitler and his staff!


And yeah, like you were saying, Yamato would have won the battle out of range of the germans, or at least have finished it off with more power quicker than they could.

And Soren, even if the germans had the stg. 44, the Japanese were always good at hiding in the dense jungles. I'm sure the Germans would have been ambushed many times like the Allies were by the Japanese, before they could see anything to machinegun in the bushes the attack would have started.

 

[syscom3]

.....
And Soren, even if the germans had the stg. 44, the Japanese were always good at hiding in the dense jungles. I'm sure the Germans would have been ambushed many times like the Allies were by the Japanese, before they could see anything to machinegun in the bushes the attack would have started.

A US Army Surgeon General report on gunshot wounds/fatalities in the jungle found most of them to be close range, and surprisingly to the head.

Soren, care to tell me about the massed tank battles in the CBI/PTO (aside from the Manchurian incident).

 

[Soren]

And Soren, even if the germans had the stg. 44, the Japanese were always good at hiding in the dense jungles. I'm sure the Germans would have been ambushed many times like the Allies were by the Japanese, before they could see anything to machinegun in the bushes the attack would have started.

No doubt Soundbreaker, but the difference is the German troops would be able to instantly put heavy 'and' deadly firepower on the enemy in the case of an ambush - the wall of lead sent by the Stg.44's penetrating several tropical trees before loosing its killing power. But even without the Stg.44 the superior training dicipline would more than make sure of success - just look at how it went on land against the Japanese for the Allies.


Syscom3,

I never said anything about "massed tank battles" - In alot of incidents the tank provided much needed assistance in the PTO, even if just a couple were engaged in action - even a couple could prove devastating. The Japanese infantry were pretty much at a loss when'ever they saw a Sherman approaching.

 

[Glider]

The German army was lacking in logistics. In this theater, logistics IS the single most important element. Dont jump to conclusions that the German Army would be any better than the US (and Aussies and Brits) that had to fight them..

This is a fair point but the Japs ability in this area is overated. Once the allies understood the basics they did well. The Japanese often relied on quick wins to overcome logistic issues. If the defense could hang on the Japanese often ran out of steam.

Again Soren doesnt read maps. Tanks were of quite limited use in the jungles. Mostly trackless dense forests, swamps and mud. The tanks were uselfull in some of the island invasions as they were able to get up close to bunkers and fortifications. But that assumes the KM and GA had the amphib capability in the first place.

In Manchuria and N China, they would be of some use, but the size of an army is dictated by its logistics, and the GA wouldnt be able to support more than a few armoured divisions. And then they run into the problems of what to do in the mountainous and hilly terrains that favored the defender..

Tanks even the Lee Grants were the turning point in Burma with the abilty to get into places and supply firepower and support where none was available. German Tanks even the Pz III and Pz IV with the 75/24 would be devistating, let alone the Panthers and Tigers.

Most LW fighters didnt have the range needed for the theater.

Rubbish. If Hurricanes, Spitfires, Blenhiem, P40, P36 and P39 to name a few could operate against the Japanese, then I don't see why the 109 and 190 couldn't.
It is also worth remembering that the 110, 410, Ju88 would be almost untouchable in the early war years as the Ki43 Japan's main land fighter wouldn't be able to get close to them and they have plenty of range.

 

[syscom3]

This is a fair point but the Japs ability in this area is overated. Once the allies understood the basics they did well. The Japanese often relied on quick wins to overcome logistic issues. If the defense could hang on the Japanese often ran out of steam.

The Japanese were really weak in this area. But it speaks volumes for their soldiers to be able to endure so much with so little.

Tanks even the Lee Grants were the turning point in Burma with the abilty to get into places and supply firepower and support where none was available. German Tanks even the Pz III and Pz IV with the 75/24 would be devistating, let alone the Panthers and Tigers.

The light tanks were usefull enough. But the Tiger was WAY to heavy to be able to be used effectively in the climates encountered in SE Asia.. And wasnt the Tigers and Panthers tread and running gear prone to jamming in the mud (in Russia)?

Rubbish. If Hurricanes, Spitfires, Blenhiem, P40, P36 and P39 to name a few could operate against the Japanese, then I don't see why the 109 and 190 couldn't.

None of the above were used on the long range missions needed to operate offensively far from bases. And only the Spitfire was effective. The others were 'also rans", fast outclassed by other allied fighters in 1943.

It is also worth remembering that the 110, 410, Ju88 would be almost untouchable in the early war years as the Ki43 Japan's main land fighter wouldn't be able to get close to them and they have plenty of range.

The Ki43 would have chopped them up simply because of its far superior maneuverablity.

 

[102first_hussars]

I voted Germany before thinking

but now that i think of it, I think Japan would have mopped the floor with Germany in naval battle, meaning the Germans would have a hard time mounting Amphibious assaults, the air war would have tipped more towards the germans favour but still, Germany has no aircraft carriers,

And lets think about Geography here

Japan is way the F*CK EAST of Germany, to make japanese positions more accesible by land Germany would have to drive right through Russia into China ( and i think we know how that might turn out)