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OK, trying to leave the German fascination with gimmicks aside.Both from the idea (= other countries and services catching on it), as well as on the best use of the known guns & ammo (mostly what the Germans were making, as well as what was made in the UK with the Littlejohn device). Yes, I know that these squeeze bore was not the best idea, it have had it's specific shortcomings, but this thread is devoted to the guns in question.
To start he ball rolling - leaving the German guns, at least the bigger types like the 75mm, on a towed mount was a mistake IMO. Get them to be self-propelled ASAP. Might've even be a good fit for the Pz-IV turret, unlike the Panther's gun, and use them as anti-tank specialists in the vein of the Sherman Firefly.
One wonders how much the 28/20 was actually a good gun to go with anyway? While the set amount of tungsten will last longer here vs. the bigger guns, the actual effect - tank killed - would've probably remained the same if they stuck with the 37mm instead. For the instances where the light weight is a paramount, and as-is the 37 is still too heavy - install the muzzle brakes and perhaps it can fit on the French 25mm carriages, and call it a day?The 28/20 guns, just under 2800 built and it was small enough to be useful for troops without motor transport, it was also small enough to be easily mounted in small trucks/heavy cars and in small armored vehicles. The Sd. Kfz 222 armored car being one and the small 1/2 track another. Hard to say if more motor transport would have ben more useful. It gave some needed punch to the parachute and mountain troops.
This one would've probably been a good retrofit on the Pz-IIIs that came out from production as armed with the 3.7cm gun? Or even probably for the Pz-38(t). At 500 and 1000m, the penetration is more than double that of the 3.7cm with APCR, or in the ballpark with the short 5cm, that was a gun the turret on the 38(t) will not be accepting happily, if at all.The 42/28mm guns, about 313 built, mounted on modified 37mm Pak 36 carriages. Some went to the "light" troops. Others were spread around. AP had very good penetration for the size of the gun. Effects on things behind the armor was a little lacking. Ability to fire effective HE is rather lacking, HE projectile weighed 280 grams. A few may have been mounted in 1/2 tracks or on tracked carriers (Bren or French?).
HE round for the 75/55 was supposed to look like this:The 75/55mm guns. only around 150 built. Motorizing them may have been more effective. But there are too few to have much effect on the war in general. Might take up more engineering effort to get it into a tank turret than what the would get out of it. Granted that did not stop the Germans from devoting a lot of time and effort into prototypes that went nowhere and could be see to be going nowhere. A taper bore MK IV tank would have been an anti-tank specialist indeed as there may have been no HE round for the gun. While a practice round is listed an HE round is not in common sources (copied from each other?). Gun is a bit longer than the standard 7.5cm/L48 gun and the ammo is bit longer.
With the ban on carbide cores being put into effect in the summer of 1942 and the gun being worthless without the cored ammo things get very iffy. A MK IV with a standard 7.5cm/L43 gun in the Spring-summer-fall of 1942 could fire Pzgr 39, a few left over rounds of Pzgr 40, HE, smoke(?) and perhaps a few shaped charge rounds?
Yes the carbide core ban was not universal and exceptions were made. But the 75/55mm gun had to use tungsten carbide for every service (combat) round fired and each round was going to use up almost double the amount of tungsten as a 50mm round would, let alone the 30mm/37mm rounds used in the aircraft anti-tank rounds. Ground 37mms may have seen issue fade to nothing as a lot of the time the 37mm ground gun could not kill the big Russian tanks even with an AP 40 round.
So a lot depended on what was going on (in some peoples minds) in the winter of 1941 and spring of 1942. Was sticking the big taper bore gun in a tank (MK IV at the time) a good idea or not? It was Nov 1941 when they decided to put the 7.5cm/L43 in the MK IV G and shortly after that decided to put them in the last of the Fs as an emergency. First production MK IVFs with L43 guns left the factory/s in March 1942. The 75/55mm gun was a for sure tank killer, but it could not do anything else. How much time to redo the mounts for tank use? What modifications to the turret?
One source says in the Summer of 1942 (June) the Germans had approximately 170 MK IVs with long guns. How many less if some had been fitted with the 75/55 guns?
What was not made for the 75/55 was the 'simple' APCBC shot - basically the 57mm zis-2 on steroids. It would've been good for taking on the T-34 beyond 1500m, and against the KV to beyond 1km; even better if the side shot opportunity arises. Not bad for a relatively compact gun that can use no tungsten and has the flat and fast trajectory.
Perhaps make a shot that has just the 1st 1/3rd of the core being from tungsten carbide, the rest from steel?
Also - try and test the APCR shot from the 5cm pak 'wrapped' in the metal container so it fits? Will use less tungsten than the normal pak 41 APCR, and will have the higher MV (that is both good and bad thing here).
WRt, the tungsten use, same thing as with the 28/20mm gun might've been applied to the 37mm getting any APRCs after 1941 - were they actually worth it on the Eastern front? A tungsten-tipped 75/55 will make for an excellent anti-tank system, even the 42mm will be useful, but to me the 37mm APCR, unless it is the biggest AT weapon the platform (basically, an aircraft) can handle, might be an example of trying to gold-plate the wood.
There was a lot of Pz-IVs with the short gun in 1942. Have the battle-damaged examples being the 1st recipients of the 75/55 gun?
A platform where it should've been perhaps easiest to install this gun in 1942 would've been the Stug-III.
I'm aware that when Edgar Brandt discussed tungsten carbide cores he left the possibility of using T.C for the tip only and steel for the rest of the core. You lose the increased density but the hard T.C tip still helps a lot as a cap. Otherwise you could use the principle the Soviets used on early APFSDS, tiny T.C core followed by steel (rod in APFSDS) where the steel has a piston effect pushing the core, which can boost penetration.
Best option for Germans would still be to figure out conical muzzle devices (Littlejohn), which would preclude the need for dedicated guns that are difficult to produce. The muzzle device is the main wear part and you can fit it to existing guns (ideally a special device with a muzzle brake for guns that needed one), so even if you run out of APCNR you can still use the gun with normal ammo and the device removed. That's what the French thought about the muzzle devices they tested from 1937 onwards (37/28 and 75/65).
With the hindsight-o-pedia in hand, stop producing them ASAP, then use up the ammo left in stock, and once that is done bore out the barrels to use standard ammo (or melt them down for scrap). Pour the AP R&D budget into APDS and HEAT.
Seems like the Soviet APFS-DS mostly-steel and steel-only penetrators were working even beyond 1500 m/s (granted, the meet velocity will be lower, but still). The lower weight of the steel part of the mixed-material can be compensated somewhat with the core being longer in total, or/and play with lead (Pb) a bit?
The common, non-stainless grades contain 17–19 wt% Ni, 8–12 wt% Co, 3–5 wt% Mo and 0.2–1.6 wt% Ti.
Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, at least for Germans/Axis, the Nickel requirement puts that steel out of their league.Soviet steel APFSDS used maraging steel which was invented in the late 1950'ies.
Maraging steel doesn't need tungsten, but uses other alloying materials that might be in short supply during WWII, particularly for Germany:
Correction, the Pz III pic I posted is apparently an attempt to mount the 5cm PaK 38 per Spielberger. The Pz IV seems to be correct however.
The M22 Locust was supplied both with and without the Littlejohn Adaptor. In use many felt it best to use the squeeze bore round for hard targets without the adaptor so that they could choose to use smoke, HE or canister as circumstances dictated. They found the Littlejohn almost as useful in penetrating armour as with the adaptor. In that respect it fell into a category where anything that was too thickly armoured for the non-adaptor to penetrate was in a class that was too thick for the adaptor use to penetrate either. ie anything at all 'tankish' was too thickly armoured for. Anything 'armoured carish' was vulnerable to both modes. I have no idea of the implications for aiming the shot in any of these cases as they must have had varying trajectories.For the Americans: Littlejohn adapter for the 37mm M4 gun. It might've made that gun a useful airborne tank-busting piece. One obviously on the P-39, two perhaps under wings of a P-40? Two on the A-20 and the like.
Littlejohn was proposed for pretty much everythingFor the Allies:
- British: the Littlejohn adapter for the 25 pdr gun, so 88/75 or /76? Should be at least as good as the Soviet zis-3 gun and the like.
- Both them and the Americans: adopter for the 75mm gun. There are hundreds in non-CONUS service already by 1942, and thousands in 1943.
- For the US 3in/76mm gun - basically the AP performance of the pak 41 with cored ammo?
Littlejohn was proposed for pretty much everything
US 20, 37, 57, 76 and 90mm, British 2, 6, 17pdr, 3/2.25", 4" gun
Shows Littlejohn with muzzle brakes exists
For the Allies:
- British: the Littlejohn adapter for the 25 pdr gun, so 88/75 or /76? Should be at least as good as the Soviet zis-3 gun and the like.
- Both them and the Americans: adopter for the 75mm gun. There are hundreds in non-CONUS service already by 1942, and thousands in 1943.
- For the US 3in/76mm gun - basically the AP performance of the pak 41 with cored ammo?
The adaptor was sort of a crutch.Thank you.
Perhaps some guns might get more of the benefit for the adapter than some others? The 6pdr was already well-outfitted to deal with enemy tanks, while the 75mm and 25pdr could've used some help.
Or perhaps the units can employ, I don't know, forward observers to see what the enemy is doing and act accordingly and timely.Needing the crew to unscrew some sort of muzzle device (even a protective thread protector) and screw the tapered bore device on the muzzle after the enemy tanks appeared in view of the gun batteries seems to need a bit of cooperation from the attacking tanks
The tank crews are going to stow the adaptors in boxes on the side/rear of the tank and are just going to fire the taper bore ammo through the naked barrels. They want to be able to fire HE and smoke ammo which was the more common projectiles than AP ammo in day to day use.
Giving the tank crews limited amounts of special ammo (long range AP ammo) that would perform even better than existing ammo at 1500-2000yds but not any better at close range but would require getting out of the tank/s and changing over from thread protector/muzzle brake to tapered adaptor while trying to stay hidden from view might not have gone over with the tankers well, despite what the manual says.
Well, if we have all of those forward observers (and accompany infantry, AT gun units and a few supporting armored units) then there is no real need of any AP ammo in the artillery units as the defending anti-tank defenses would have stopped the the enemy tanks according to doctrine in a timely fashion.Or perhaps the units can employ, I don't know, forward observers to see what the enemy is doing and act accordingly and timely.
But that is probably a weird idea to begin with.
British tank crews especially did not have a lot of confidence in their orders/doctrine/equipment if they survived even just a few engagements with the enemy. They did what they could given the equipment and doctrine they were given to try to accomplish the orders. A lot of them died due to poor equipment and poor doctrine. Smart officers tried to save their men for when it was going to count. Whatever the bravery of Matilda tanks at Halfaya pass on June 15th 1941, they had been let down by poor doctrine, poor communications, and poor equipment. This was not the last time. Over a year later the British tank crews were firing 2in HE mortar bombs (scrounged) out of their smoke mortars because of the British doctrine of NO HE in tanks. British tank crews used captured German 7.9mm AP ammo in their Besa guns to try to penetrate German gun shields because the British supply channels would not supply British 7.9mm AP ammo.Here is another far-fetched idea: tank crews do what they are ordered to do and what they are given the required equipment. But, following orders would've meant they are in military, and we don't want that to happen.
Having 20-40% of the tank force having super guns is better than none. But is also means your whole force is rather subject to mechanical problems/breakdowns. 16 tank Squadron has 4 super tanks, one engine/transmission break down just cut the the force by 25% if it is on of the special tanks. I don't know what the right mix was.I don't think that anyone suggested that all the tanks are given the adapter and the ammo.