Greatest Aircraft of World War Two.

[361st_Xabre]

Don't eve begin bringing in sims to make these types of comparisons - no PC sim will ever get you remotely close to the really flying, let alone determining aircraft performance.

The Zero was an over-rated propaganda machine, although deadly in the right hands it never achieved more than a 2 to 1 kill ratio over inferior Western aircraft and that was only for a very short period!!!

Hey there FlyboyJ,
Firstly I thought I was very clear in my post, I was NOT trying to compare the flight sim (IL2 Forgotten Battles) to real world flight characteristics.
Secondly although Ive been told by some reliable sources that the flight simm does its best to "simulate" the real world flight characteristics of the fighters in question.
It is obvious that you did not understand fully my post..in that if the Japanese designers would have kept pace with the rest of the warring parties and there constant upgrades to their perspective front line fighters IE: Spitfire,BF 109, etc. the A6m series would have been a deadly foe in any theater, You are correct in that it was relatively slow,and yes it was an inferior fighter just in its non armored configuration. but it ,even at its slow speed could out turn anything comming against it. and yes in the right hands the A6M was certain death to any rookie pilot that got in its way . For example the only way that the U.S. fighters could beat the A6M in the early 40's was to Sassy Sandwich the Zero.in other words split off and wait to see which fighter the zero would go after ,and god help the poor Bas***rd in front of the Zero. Hopefully the wingman got behind the A6M and took him out immediately
This was the only way to beat the Zero until the F6F, P38 and P51 came into play buy this time the IJN had lost there best pilots and the Zero was far surpassed in performance because of the paralysis of the Japanese bureaucracy.

X

 

[lesofprimus]

This was the only way to beat the Zero until the F6F, P38 and P51 came into play

The P-40 had excellent results against the Zero, as well as several other "inferior" airplanes...

 

[plan_D]

The Zero was too slow to achieve an considerable success against the great fighters of World War II. At slow speeds the Zero would out-turn almost anything, but the opposing pilots would keep the speed high and rid the Zero of all it's advantages.
When the A6M2 first made a kill on September 13th, 1940, the British had the already been building the Spitfire Mk.II with Merlin XII engines for some months. And the Luftwaffe introduced the Bf-109F-1 the month after the Zero made it's kill.

The speed of the Bf-109F-1 was around 390 MPH. The A6M2 had a top speed of 309 - 325 MPH depending on the source. The Spitfire Mk.II had a top speed of 354 MPH. Both of these aircraft were in combat, and only just developed in 1940, yet they both were faster, heavier armed, superior armoured and more agile at higher speeds. As the speed of planes increased, the agility at low speeds became less important. The Zero would not be able to pull any tight turn above 275 MPH, what if the Spitfire pilot comes flying in at 300 - 320 MPH and keeps himself there? He's still got 30 MPH on his speed, but he's out-turning the Zero because the Zero can't turn at that speed. It can't roll well, dive well or climb as fast as the Spitfire Mk.II.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hey there FlyboyJ,
Firstly I thought I was very clear in my post, I was NOT trying to compare the flight sim (IL2 Forgotten Battles) to real world flight characteristics.
Secondly although Ive been told by some reliable sources that the flight simm does its best to "simulate" the real world flight characteristics of the fighters in question.

It gives a very limited understanding, especially in just basic flying...

For example the only way that the U.S. fighters could beat the A6M in the early 40's was to Sassy Sandwich the Zero.in other words split off and wait to see which fighter the zero would go after ,and god help the poor Bas***rd in front of the Zero. Hopefully the wingman got behind the A6M and took him out immediately

The P-40 and even the P-39 could out maneuver the Zero at high speed, the P-40 could out roll it at all speeds - these advantages were fully exploited by the late summer of 1942. If you explore some old threads I have data that shows by the fall of 1942 the USAAF had better than a 1.5 to 1 kill ration over the Zero and Oscar, contradicting a lot of second rate books about this subject.

 

[361st_Xabre]

Again I submit if the the Jap designers would have kept up with the latest and greatest in aircraft design the inferior Zero would have been formidable against the fighters you had mentioned.

X
Oh by the way the fastest single engine fighter of the ETO was the Yak 9U it was SCARY FAST flat out.

X

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Oh by the way the fastest single engine fighter of the ETO was the Yak 9U it was SCARY FAST flat out.

At what altitude? There are many german aircraft that were way faster than the YAK-9U

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Secret weapons over normandy, I think, did a pretty good job. you can add mods to your planes and the second fighter you get is a Spitfire. You also get a german bomber and begin with a Hurricane.

Okay first of all dont get me started on sims.

As with FBJ and many others here who actually fly, we can tell you that a sim does not compare to really flying an aircraft.

2nd Secret Weapons over Normany is not even close. It is fake and a game for kids and nothing more. I have the game and have played it. It compares nothing to flying real aircraft. It is like the Mario Brothers of flight sims.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

X
Oh by the way the fastest single engine fighter of the ETO was the Yak 9U it was SCARY FAST flat out.

X

Oh really are you really sure about that?

Lets see:

Yak-9U: 417 mph (672 km/h)

Germany
Ta-152: 459 mph (731 km/h)
Fw-190A-4: 417 mph (672 km/h)
Fw-190D: 440 mph (704 km/h)
Bf-109K-4: 452 mph (727 km/h)
He-100: 416 mph (670 km/h)
Me-209: 469 mph (755 km/h)
Bv-155: 429 mph (683 km/h)
Me-309: 455 mph (733 km/h)

USA
P-47N: 433 mph (697 km/h)
P-51D: 437 mph (703 km/h)
F4U: 417 mph (671 km/h)

England
Hawker Tempest MK. II: 440 mph (704 km/h)
Hawker Fury: 440 mph (704 km/h)
Spitfire XIV: 448 mph (721 km/h)

Japan
Ki.87: 433 mph (687 km/h)
J7W1: 466 mph (742 km/h)
Ki.64: 429 mph (683 km/h)

 

[evangilder]

To make the zero faster would not have done much for it, except give it the ability to get out of trouble faster. The biggest problem was the barn-door sized ailerons. It was a great advantage at slow speeds because they bite into the air and give you the tight turn radius. At high-speed, you are doomed though because there is no way any human has the strength to move them. Would power assist have helped? Maybe, we will never know if the structure would have been able to hold up to those kinds of forces.

Adding armor and self sealing fuel tanks to the Zero would have added weight, which will effect range, speed, manueverability, etc. Plus, depending on where the weight is distributed, you could take an airplane that is fairly stable and make it a student killer.

The Japanese were not stupid. They had other designs after the Zero that used some of the lessons learned. Late war Japanese fighters were actually pretty good, just too little, too late. Once cut off from the raw materials, they were well on the path to defeat. Let's not make the Zero out to be the end-all and be-all. It was a fighter that was good when it first came out, and faced a number of inferior fighters in China doing well. But it received a reputation of mythic proportions that proved in many ways to be unfounded.

 

[361st_Xabre]

Oh really are you really sure about that?

Lets see:

Yak-9U: 417 mph (672 km/h)

Germany
Ta-152: 459 mph (731 km/h)
Fw-190A-4: 417 mph (672 km/h)
Fw-190D: 440 mph (704 km/h)
Bf-109K-4: 452 mph (727 km/h)
He-100: 416 mph (670 km/h)
Me-209: 469 mph (755 km/h)
Bv-155: 429 mph (683 km/h)
Me-309: 455 mph (733 km/h)

USA
P-47N: 433 mph (697 km/h)
P-51D: 437 mph (703 km/h)
F4U: 417 mph (671 km/h)

England
Hawker Tempest MK. II: 440 mph (704 km/h)
Hawker Fury: 440 mph (704 km/h)
Spitfire XIV: 448 mph (721 km/h)

Japan
Ki.87: 433 mph (687 km/h)
J7W1: 466 mph (742 km/h)
Ki.64: 429 mph (683 km/h)

To both FlyboyJ and AdlerIstgalandet
I stand humbly corrected!.......HUGE LOL!

 

[syscom3]

A couple other points to ponder about the Zero.

It had an extremely long range for a aircraft carrier fighter. That complicated a lot of planning for the USN in the first year of the war as theoretically, the Zero (and the Val and Kate) could be in range long before the US could launch theres.

The Zero's also had terrible radio's which made control of their formations difficult to control once the fight started. And it didnt help them one bit for CAP over the carriers (one reason they lost at Midway).

Many allied pilots mistook the Oscar with the Zero.

Generally, in 1942, Oscars were found only in the CBI. Zero's were in the Solomons and New Guinie. In early 1943, as the IJAAF moved into New Guinie, the Oscar began to appear, and the Zero was relegated strictly to the Solomons and a couple of locations on New Guinie where the IJN still had airfields.

Now if there was one inadvertant advantage that the Zero and Oscar both had, it was very easy to fly. Almost like a souped up combat trainer. Once the war began and the Japanese began to accelerate their training programs, there was a reasonable probability that a student pilot could transition successfully to these airplanes and not get killed learning to fly it. Of course all that meant was they would be skilled trainee's when shot down by allied pilots.

 

[syscom3]

I have plenty of information on the testing syscom. There were three B-29s modified to carry the Tall Boy (M-109) or Grand Slam (M-110) bombs either in the bomb bay or on under-wing racks.

The M-109 testing finished with the final date as June 11th, 1945 and modified B-29s were ordered to be ready as soon as possible for use against precise targets in Japan. Reports show that these machines, with the bombs, would have been ready to bomb Japan by September, 1945.

I know that after the 20th AF finished burning down the Japanese cities, they were going to go after the rail infrastructure. I wonder if this was to be used for that. Or maybe try to hit bunker complex's in hills impeding hte invading ground forces.

 

[361st_Xabre]

To make the zero faster would not have done much for it, except give it the ability to get out of trouble faster. The biggest problem was the barn-door sized ailerons. It was a great advantage at slow speeds because they bite into the air and give you the tight turn radius. At high-speed, you are doomed though because there is no way any human has the strength to move them. Would power assist have helped? Maybe, we will never know if the structure would have been able to hold up to those kinds of forces.

Adding armor and self sealing fuel tanks to the Zero would have added weight, which will effect range, speed, manueverability, etc. Plus, depending on where the weight is distributed, you could take an airplane that is fairly stable and make it a student killer.

The Japanese were not stupid. They had other designs after the Zero that used some of the lessons learned. Late war Japanese fighters were actually pretty good, just too little, too late. Once cut off from the raw materials, they were well on the path to defeat. Let's not make the Zero out to be the end-all and be-all. It was a fighter that was good when it first came out, and faced a number of inferior fighters in China doing well. But it received a reputation of mythic proportions that proved in many ways to be unfounded.

Thankyou for the clarification,
I still believe that given the opportunity to improve the A6M IE. Giving the plane power assist on control surfaces , a beefier motor ,and even the minimum of armor would have improved the Zero emensly, but of course it was never done and therefore faired terribly,and as history has shown Japan paid dearly in materials, planes and most of all good pilots.

X

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thankyou for the clarification,
I still believe that given the opportunity to improve the A6M IE. Giving the plane power assist on control surfaces , a beefier motor ,and even the minimum of armor would have improved the Zero emensly, but of course it was never done and therefore faired terribly,and as history has shown Japan paid dearly in materials, planes and most of all good pilots.

X

"Power assist on the control surfaces" That's done 2 ways - hydraulic boost or by counter weights - both need room and structure to support them = WEIGHT. Assuming you could do that to the Zero you would have to reinforce the rest of the aircraft because with boosted control surfaces you run the risk of over-stressing the aircraft, so with that comes more weight. Later model Zero's did have armor and self sealing tanks, minimal by US standards but they were attempting to improve the design. The later model A6M5c had a 1,200 HP engine and couldn't even break 350 mph and the Japanese even attempted to put a 1,500 hp engine in the A6M8c in which only a handful were built and still offered little improvement.

Bottom line the design was obsolete by 1942 and you couldn't do many more "bolt on" improvements - by that time the IJN and the JAAF were already looking at new designs and it was the smart thing to do - you could only pump so much "soup" into superman, in this case the Zero....

 

[361st_Xabre]

Good points....I guess the Zero was a good idea at the time. I think the Designers did not realize that what was comming on the horizon. Far faster,better armored,better manuverable fighters...they were over whelmed at the advancements made by the allies who were really pissed at them.. but Yamamoto said it best" We can win for the first six monthes but im afraid we have awoken a sleeping giant" and they did, and from that point forward it was a losing battle for the Nips. Now that i think about it even if the JIAAF would have had the fastest fighter I dont think it would have made much of a differance. the U.S. war machine was playing to win and they did with a vengance that is unsurpassed in history.

X

 

[Col. Douglas King]

Definitley: Lockheed P-38L Lightning !

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

This site has changed........

It used to be the FW!

 

[evangilder]

Best fighter, I would agree the FW, best overall aircraft, I still say C-47.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I too still think the best fighter was the Fw-190D.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Nooooo! There's two of them!

so it would seem