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Furthermore France had surrenderd so according to international laws, those sailers not resisting the allies, would have constitute to treason.
The British did not commit their full strength to the battle and withdrew after Dunkirk, France kept on fighting so they did have a reason to feel deserted.
The heavy cruiser Hipper did not have a great range, yet it was successfully used as a commerce raider, although it was not ideally suited for the role.Most ships have close range and couldn't be used as raiders.
Dunkerque, Strasbourg and Richelieu were not old ships! In fact they would have been a welcome addition to any modern battlefleet. As we know, the latter was sent to the USA for refit.Old battleships were really obsolete with poor guns, armor and fire control.
Based on what? The German subs were no better than foreign ones; the secret to their success in WW2 was their application.Submarines were by far inferior to U-boats.
The Germans had a desperate shortage of destroyers after Norway, where its fleet size of about 22 ships had been reduced by half. If they could have been used, they would have. Also, we know that the Vichy forces would most certainly have used these ships against the Allies given the opportunity.Destroyers were poor escorts with weak AA and ASW armament.
Why would the Kriegsmarine have to operate or maintain these vessels?
As far as anyone knew at the time the French Navy would have operated them for the germans. the Vichy regime was effectively an ally of Germany (despite all the small print) and those ships would have made a big difference to the balance of naval forces in the Mediterranean.
We British remember the resistance put up by Governor General Armand Léon Annet and his forces on Madagascar in 1942 only too well. Operation "Torch" was not initially unopposed either. Vichy French Forces frequently demonstrated that didn't know whose side they were on and we weren't going to mess about taking a chance that could endanger our position in the Mediterranean.
As for "abandoning the French" in the Battle of France you need to look at the numbers. France was considered the pre-eminent military power on mainland Europe in 1939/40. The number of British Forces in Europe at the time is tiny compared to the French. The Germans defeated both,but it was primarily a defeat for the French.
This I doubt as althought the ships were scuttled the shore facilities were untouched and I see no reason why that would change.
That I agree but it is quite possible that enought French seaman would have continued the fight for the Germans. There were French units in the German army and I see as an extension of that.
As regards the British decision to attack the fleet at Oran, I'm afraid it makes operational and strategic sense.
The heavy cruiser Hipper did not have a great range, yet it was successfully used as a commerce raider, although it was not ideally suited for the role.
Dunkerque, Strasbourg and Richelieu were not old ships! In fact they would have been a welcome addition to any modern battlefleet. As we know, the latter was sent to the USA for refit.
Based on what? The German subs were no better than foreign ones; the secret to their success in WW2 was their application.
That I agree with but it depends when they tried to seize the ships.When the fleet was scuttled in toulon, the German were in sight and there was no time to damage the port. If Germany tries to size the fleet during the battle of France, there would be more time to damage the bases.
Possibly but there is no denying I am afraid that there were French people who fought for the Germans in the German army, not just in the SS. There were a lot of collaborators who fought against the french resistance and the Vichy forces who fought against the allies.The French who fought with the SS were not part of French army. There were civilian volunteers making a crusade against communism. That's quite different from French ships operating for Germany.
Is that correct? It was my understanding that Vichy France was established as a non-occupied, self-governing region. To that end, it was for the Vichy Government to decide who to fight and who not to fight - and we clearly know the answer to that question, just as we clearly know that the Vichy government ordered the deportation of Jews to death camps before the Nazis even asked them to. Yes, there are shades of grey but sometimes they are introduced when decisions ought, morally, to be black and white. QUOTE]
Yip that is correct. Part of the 2nd Versailles treaty came a whole set of new rules and believe me Vichy was no longer a sovereign state and therefore could not independly decide who to fight.
But they could choose not to fight. Sorry to keep banging on about this but I strongly urge a read of "Seduced by Hitler: the Choices of a Nation and the Ethics of Survival" by Adam LeBor and Roger Boyes. While focussing on Germany, it also examines the roles played by neutral and occupied countries. To summarise, even if you claim to be neutral, if you are supporting/helping a regime (including through trade) as evil as the Nazi one then you're plainly on the wrong side of the moral argument. That question equally applies to military leaders at locations around the French empire, and down to the individual soldier. I would have thought the French people would have wanted the entirety of their nation liberated from Nazi rule as rapidly as possible and yet, instead, we have Vichy forces fighting against the Allies. It's all very ugly history.
Which is the sort of nonsensical tripe, that we get from those desperate to show Churchill as some malign malevolence; nobody ever explains how, if Churchill wanted this mythical victory (how, incidentally, can destroying the assets of a former ally be called a "victory?",) he ordered Cunningham and Somerville to give the French four options:- 1/. continue to fight against the enemy; 2/. sail to a British port, where they would be interned, and the crews repatriated to France; 3/. sail to a French port in the West Indies where the ships could be demilitarised and perhaps entrusted to United States care; 4/. scuttle the ships. Cunningham managed to introduce some flexibility into the orders, and drew up an acceptable solution in Alexandria; Somerville tried, for nearly a whole day, to get a similar agreement, but was ordered (by the Admiralty) to settle the matter before dark; the rest is history.According to most historian and Royal Navy officers (including Somerville) the attack on Mers-el Kebir (and later against Madagascar) made no operational sense. Churchill wanted a victory to boost British morale and show his resolution. Wether it makes strategic sense or not, I don't know ...
Sorry Glider, but I think that is a very weak argument and borderline an insult to the French even if not intended. There were collaboratuers in every single of the occupied countries, for a varying amount of reason. And yes, there were even British SS volunteers, a very small number, but still. It is something that comes very naturally with occupation.That I agree with but it depends when they tried to seize the ships.
Possibly but there is no denying I am afraid that there were French people who fought for the Germans in the German army, not just in the SS. There were a lot of collaborators who fought against the french resistance and the Vichy forces who fought against the allies.
It isn't a large step to go from fighting in the German Army to assisting the Germany Navy.
I should add that this isn't having a go at the French people, we in the UK had a number of people who supported the German ideals pre war and had we been invaded I doubt that we would have been any different
Sorry Glider, but I think that is a very weak argument and borderline an insult to the French even if not intended. There were collaboratuers in every single of the occupied countries, for a varying amount of reason. And yes, there were even British SS volunteers, a very small number, but still. It is something that comes very naturally with occupation.
From Wiki: An estimated 360,000 non-German volunteers and conscripts served in the Waffen-SS
I do repeat that I do not believe that the UK would have behaved differently had we been invaded. The vast majority would not have joined but some would and this is not a slight on the French.