Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
Or maybe it was that Jaguar shot down by an F4 on an exercise. Or was it v-v?
Greatest Fighter Aircraft of All Time
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Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/phantom/history.html
" With increasing recognition that the Phantom was much better suited than the Lightning to defending the UK's airspace and the surprise success of the Jaguar programme, RAF Germany in particular began to lose its Phantoms, which were re-tasked with air defence while Jaguars took over the ground attack and recon roles. Revenge of a sort was had when one Phantom shot down a Jaguar over Germany - it was, of course, an accident. So the story goes, anyway!"
" With increasing recognition that the Phantom was much better suited than the Lightning to defending the UK's airspace and the surprise success of the Jaguar programme, RAF Germany in particular began to lose its Phantoms, which were re-tasked with air defence while Jaguars took over the ground attack and recon roles. Revenge of a sort was had when one Phantom shot down a Jaguar over Germany - it was, of course, an accident. So the story goes, anyway!"
Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
http://www.kmike.com/oz/77/MK8OPS.htm
Meteors in Vietnam.... but they're Aussies... no RAF fighter planes in 'nam...
Meteors in Vietnam.... but they're Aussies... no RAF fighter planes in 'nam...
Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
"But have the RAF or ADA produced even one ace? How about Israel- though they are secretive about pilot identity".
See:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-6266.html
lots of interesting, if heated, discussion about PAF vs IAF etc.
See:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-6266.html
lots of interesting, if heated, discussion about PAF vs IAF etc.
Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
Chinook CH-47c of CAB 601 destroyed on the ground near Mount Kent by Flt Lt. Hare RAF. Flying a Harrier GR3.
Hare destroyed the Chinook using his 30mm cannon. In the same attack Sqn Ldr Pook badly damaged a Puma ( SA 330L ) of CAB 601 also on the ground near Mount Kent, again using his GR3s 30mm cannon. Pook returned to finish the job of on the 26th of May, destroying the helicopter.
Hare destroyed the Chinook using his 30mm cannon. In the same attack Sqn Ldr Pook badly damaged a Puma ( SA 330L ) of CAB 601 also on the ground near Mount Kent, again using his GR3s 30mm cannon. Pook returned to finish the job of on the 26th of May, destroying the helicopter.
Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_303.shtml
also:
"If the ownership of the airframes is removed from the equation, then the Falklands was the last occasion with the RAF providing about 25% of SHAR pilots who scored about 25% of the victories. The joint leading scorer was from the RAF (Flt Lt Dave Morgan), although he subsequently transferred to the RN.
"RAF pilots also scored victories flying with the USAF during the Korean war, and, IIRC, there was one scored while with 77 Sqn RAAF on Meteor 8s.
......
"the last RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft to achieve an air-to-air kill was Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 48. The sqn were based at Ramat David, to the southeast of Haifa, covering the final withdrawal of British Forces from Palestine following the declaration of the state of Israel on 14 May 48. Hostilities had already broken out between the Israelis and the surrounding Arab states, then on 22 May 48 at 0610 hrs two Egyptian LF9 Spitfires attacked the RAF base at Ramat David, presumably mistaking it for an Israeli base. The Spitfires strafed the Spitfire FR18s of 32 and 208 Sqns that were parked in two neat lines, destroying two and damaging another eight. Nobody was injured in the initial attack despite a number of bombs also being dropped on the airfield.
The majority of the pilots of 32 and 208 Sqns were recovering from a severe hangover when the initial attacked occurred, having enjoyed a particularly exuberant Dining In Night at which it had been decided that the Officers' Mess would be burnt to the ground on the final departure to prevent it falling into the hands of the Israelis. After the initial attack two pilots of 208 Sqn (Fg Offs Geoff Cooper and Roy Bowie) got airborne in Spitfire FR18s and mounted a standing patrol over the airfield. At 0710 hrs three more Egyptian LF9 Spitfires returned to attack the airfield again, destroying a Dakota that was attempting to land, killing two of the crew. Cooper and Bowie shot down one Egyptian LF9 each, the third was shot down by the combined fire of two RAF Regiment Bren Gunners, Sgt Atkinson and AC Waind.
At 0930 two Egyptain LF9s decided to stage a third attack on Ramat David. This time Fg Tim Off McElhaw and Fg Off Hully of 208 Sqn had taken over the standing patrol. Fg Off McElhaw flying Spitfire FR18 TZ228 managed to intercept and shoot down both LF9s, despite this incident being the first time he had ever done any air-to-air firing. Tim McElhaw was later shot down himself by a Canadian flying a Spitfire LF9 for the Israelis - but that's another story.
Tim McElhaw is still alive, along with Roy Bowie – I have no idea what happened to Geoff Cooper after he retired as the aviation correspondent of the Daily Telegraph or Hully. The above details form part of an article I have written about the incidents involving the IAF and RAF in 1948/9 which should appear in Air Enthusiast early in the New Year.
by
Heimdall
..........
To illustrate the point about skewing the kill ratios for your own end there was the example of the RSAF F15 nuking a pair of IAF Mirage F1s in the 1st GW:
"Are you thinking of the RSAF F-15 that got two Mirage F-1s?? Don't recall seeing the F3 credited with victories...
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[Post 20]
Author : Navaleye
Date : 6th December 2004 15:55
Archimedes, you may well be right, now I think more about it (that brain cell still functions) I think the F3 got hauled off by an American controller. I guess they didn't want the flying fin to score any points when an F15 was in the air.
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[Post 21]
Author : Magic Mushroom
Date : 6th December 2004 16:39
Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
........
RAF exchange pilots certainly got kills with the USAF in Korea. John Nicholls (later an AOC in C Strike or something equally important) got the first in December 1952 (after damaging three more).
Squadron leader Max Higson from No.43 Squadron destroyed at least one MiG-15.
A Flight Lieutenant Daniel who flew with 334 FIS at Kimpo was credited with damaging two MiGs during his six-month tour during 1952.
Flight Lieutenant RTF Dickinson, shot down one MiG-15
Flight Lieutenant John Granville-White shot down one MiG 15
Flight Lieutenant Graham S Hulse shot down three more MiG 15s
Other post war kills all happened in wars where admitting them was impossible or politically undesirable, in just the way that the SAS's exploits have so often gone unacknowledged.
I was assured (by someone who was there) that No.208 Squadron took its revenge after four of its unarmed Spits were downed by the IDF/AF. That can't be confirmed, though Tim McElhaw of 208 (later OC 14 in the Canberra era) certainly got two Egyptian Spit Vs on 22 May 1948, and on 7 January 1949 B.Spragg of No 6 squadron, flying an RAF Tempest, shot down an IDF/AF Spitfire IX.
There are also persistent reports that a Venom mate got a kill during the Suez op (perhaps on 5 November, perhaps Flg. Off. Dave Williams of No.249, his victim being a Meteor), and that a Hunter bloke got a manoeuvre kill against a MiG-17 during the Confrontation (there are lots of references to this: eg: "a Hunter got into a maneuvering contest with a MiG-17, which resulted in the MiG pilot flying his aircraft into the ground. If this actually happened, it was the only air-to-air kill of the Hunter in British service"), and that a Javelin crew got a C-130 (eg: "but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964.")
The Phantom/Jag kill wasn't the first RAF own goal, either, a Lightning F2A (flown by M Valasek?) having earlier downed a Harrier GR3......
Nor was MiG-Eater's kill the only such victory in the Gulf War. On 17 January 1991 a JP233 bomblet dropped by an RAF Tornado GR.Mk.1 did for an Iraqi MiG-25PD as it attempted to take off.
also:
"If the ownership of the airframes is removed from the equation, then the Falklands was the last occasion with the RAF providing about 25% of SHAR pilots who scored about 25% of the victories. The joint leading scorer was from the RAF (Flt Lt Dave Morgan), although he subsequently transferred to the RN.
"RAF pilots also scored victories flying with the USAF during the Korean war, and, IIRC, there was one scored while with 77 Sqn RAAF on Meteor 8s.
......
"the last RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft to achieve an air-to-air kill was Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 48. The sqn were based at Ramat David, to the southeast of Haifa, covering the final withdrawal of British Forces from Palestine following the declaration of the state of Israel on 14 May 48. Hostilities had already broken out between the Israelis and the surrounding Arab states, then on 22 May 48 at 0610 hrs two Egyptian LF9 Spitfires attacked the RAF base at Ramat David, presumably mistaking it for an Israeli base. The Spitfires strafed the Spitfire FR18s of 32 and 208 Sqns that were parked in two neat lines, destroying two and damaging another eight. Nobody was injured in the initial attack despite a number of bombs also being dropped on the airfield.
The majority of the pilots of 32 and 208 Sqns were recovering from a severe hangover when the initial attacked occurred, having enjoyed a particularly exuberant Dining In Night at which it had been decided that the Officers' Mess would be burnt to the ground on the final departure to prevent it falling into the hands of the Israelis. After the initial attack two pilots of 208 Sqn (Fg Offs Geoff Cooper and Roy Bowie) got airborne in Spitfire FR18s and mounted a standing patrol over the airfield. At 0710 hrs three more Egyptian LF9 Spitfires returned to attack the airfield again, destroying a Dakota that was attempting to land, killing two of the crew. Cooper and Bowie shot down one Egyptian LF9 each, the third was shot down by the combined fire of two RAF Regiment Bren Gunners, Sgt Atkinson and AC Waind.
At 0930 two Egyptain LF9s decided to stage a third attack on Ramat David. This time Fg Tim Off McElhaw and Fg Off Hully of 208 Sqn had taken over the standing patrol. Fg Off McElhaw flying Spitfire FR18 TZ228 managed to intercept and shoot down both LF9s, despite this incident being the first time he had ever done any air-to-air firing. Tim McElhaw was later shot down himself by a Canadian flying a Spitfire LF9 for the Israelis - but that's another story.
Tim McElhaw is still alive, along with Roy Bowie – I have no idea what happened to Geoff Cooper after he retired as the aviation correspondent of the Daily Telegraph or Hully. The above details form part of an article I have written about the incidents involving the IAF and RAF in 1948/9 which should appear in Air Enthusiast early in the New Year.
by
Heimdall
..........
To illustrate the point about skewing the kill ratios for your own end there was the example of the RSAF F15 nuking a pair of IAF Mirage F1s in the 1st GW:
"Are you thinking of the RSAF F-15 that got two Mirage F-1s?? Don't recall seeing the F3 credited with victories...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[Post 20]
Author : Navaleye
Date : 6th December 2004 15:55
Archimedes, you may well be right, now I think more about it (that brain cell still functions) I think the F3 got hauled off by an American controller. I guess they didn't want the flying fin to score any points when an F15 was in the air.
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[Post 21]
Author : Magic Mushroom
Date : 6th December 2004 16:39
Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
........
RAF exchange pilots certainly got kills with the USAF in Korea. John Nicholls (later an AOC in C Strike or something equally important) got the first in December 1952 (after damaging three more).
Squadron leader Max Higson from No.43 Squadron destroyed at least one MiG-15.
A Flight Lieutenant Daniel who flew with 334 FIS at Kimpo was credited with damaging two MiGs during his six-month tour during 1952.
Flight Lieutenant RTF Dickinson, shot down one MiG-15
Flight Lieutenant John Granville-White shot down one MiG 15
Flight Lieutenant Graham S Hulse shot down three more MiG 15s
Other post war kills all happened in wars where admitting them was impossible or politically undesirable, in just the way that the SAS's exploits have so often gone unacknowledged.
I was assured (by someone who was there) that No.208 Squadron took its revenge after four of its unarmed Spits were downed by the IDF/AF. That can't be confirmed, though Tim McElhaw of 208 (later OC 14 in the Canberra era) certainly got two Egyptian Spit Vs on 22 May 1948, and on 7 January 1949 B.Spragg of No 6 squadron, flying an RAF Tempest, shot down an IDF/AF Spitfire IX.
There are also persistent reports that a Venom mate got a kill during the Suez op (perhaps on 5 November, perhaps Flg. Off. Dave Williams of No.249, his victim being a Meteor), and that a Hunter bloke got a manoeuvre kill against a MiG-17 during the Confrontation (there are lots of references to this: eg: "a Hunter got into a maneuvering contest with a MiG-17, which resulted in the MiG pilot flying his aircraft into the ground. If this actually happened, it was the only air-to-air kill of the Hunter in British service"), and that a Javelin crew got a C-130 (eg: "but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964.")
The Phantom/Jag kill wasn't the first RAF own goal, either, a Lightning F2A (flown by M Valasek?) having earlier downed a Harrier GR3......
Nor was MiG-Eater's kill the only such victory in the Gulf War. On 17 January 1991 a JP233 bomblet dropped by an RAF Tornado GR.Mk.1 did for an Iraqi MiG-25PD as it attempted to take off.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
The one thing I can't find is if the RAF had any kills in 1956
Well I think it comes down to this pD.
Overall the F-14 had better capabilities than the Lightning, now having said that.
The Lightning and the F-14 were the premier Cold War Intercepters and did one hell of a job deterring a posibble "Hot" War.
Overall the F-14 had better capabilities than the Lightning, now having said that.
The Lightning and the F-14 were the premier Cold War Intercepters and did one hell of a job deterring a posibble "Hot" War.
Allright! 
Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
So nobody cares that the RAF has no jet aces?
Has quite a bearing on which was the best ever post-ww2 fighter methinks.
Has quite a bearing on which was the best ever post-ww2 fighter methinks.
I dont really think it does actually because there are not that many post war aces anyhow. There are no USAF F-16 aces, does that make the F-16 a bad aircraft? No.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"Lt. Col. Cesar Rodriguez, Capt. Michael Shower and Capt. Jeffrey Hwang — each piloting an F-15C — took down a total of four MiG-29s in the first three days of the conflict. Hwang was credited with two kills on March 26, 1999. Lt. Col. Michael Geczy had the final one of the conflict on June 4.
Rodriguez, now a colonel at Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho, is one of three active-duty Air Force members with three kills. Col. Thomas Dietz, commander of the 307th Fighter Squadron at Langley Air Force Base, Va., is another.
Dietz had three aerial victories in 1991 during the Persian Gulf War.
Rodriguez had two of his three kills then, before scoring again in Kosovo.
Col. Robert G. Wright, chief of the special air operations branch at NATO's AirNorth at Ramstein Air Base, Germany, had all of his in between those two conflicts."
Rodriguez, now a colonel at Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho, is one of three active-duty Air Force members with three kills. Col. Thomas Dietz, commander of the 307th Fighter Squadron at Langley Air Force Base, Va., is another.
Dietz had three aerial victories in 1991 during the Persian Gulf War.
Rodriguez had two of his three kills then, before scoring again in Kosovo.
Col. Robert G. Wright, chief of the special air operations branch at NATO's AirNorth at Ramstein Air Base, Germany, had all of his in between those two conflicts."
Royzee617
Tech Sergeant
Ok - interesting.
But it bothers me that the one time best air force in the world has zero kills in half a decade.... it's not much to proud of for a start. Plus we like wars us Brits... have lost a lot of grunts but no a2a kills at all? Mad. A similar WoT having all those tanks since it is only recently the BA has been able to use these expensive beasties.
But does the F15 vs F16 mean that the USAF has a pecking order? Only use your best available assets of course. But the 'lightweight fighter' as the F16 was originated, is now a bomb truck or WW. Daft.
The F15 and F14 are magnificent machines but way way too big for A2A. Can spot them coming for miles. Was just as bad with the F4 (plus all you had to do was fire your weapons at where the smoke trail starts!)
But it bothers me that the one time best air force in the world has zero kills in half a decade.... it's not much to proud of for a start. Plus we like wars us Brits... have lost a lot of grunts but no a2a kills at all? Mad. A similar WoT having all those tanks since it is only recently the BA has been able to use these expensive beasties.
But does the F15 vs F16 mean that the USAF has a pecking order? Only use your best available assets of course. But the 'lightweight fighter' as the F16 was originated, is now a bomb truck or WW. Daft.
The F15 and F14 are magnificent machines but way way too big for A2A. Can spot them coming for miles. Was just as bad with the F4 (plus all you had to do was fire your weapons at where the smoke trail starts!)
loomaluftwaffe
Tech Sergeant
- 1,840
- Dec 20, 2005
but these days, you spot them after the catastrophic explosion near your position
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Royzee617 said:
Too big for air-to-air? As long as the aircraft has the capabilities for air to air it doesn't matter - both fighters are big for a reason - it enables them to carry the weapons, fuel, engines and avionics that made them the top fighters that they are! Spot them for miles?!? Maybe on a good radar, but they don't close leaving the smoke trail like the F-4 did.
In modern air-to-air combat visual contact is secondary (unless you're in the Israeli Air Force).
- Thread starter
- #298
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Ok now that we are done with the Tomcat VS Lightning stuff, we can continue the discussion about the poll, for one, the P-51 is a better plane than the spit.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Oh Jesus, not again....
LOL
