Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
He can be very curt. Supposedly is like that in his auto business. Btw, I'm the one who replied to your YouTube comment. I wasn't sure if you meant Greg or Bill since many of the comments were how Bill was outmatched.I'm not a fan of how he talks to his viewers. I do watch his vids and try to glom some stuff.
He can be very curt. Supposedly is like that in his auto business. Btw, I'm the one who replied to your YouTube comment. I wasn't sure if you meant Greg or Bill since many of the comments were how Bill was outmatched.
My words were about Greg's approach.drgondog didn't engage in ad-homs or begging the question. I don't know the technical stuff about P-47 range beyond generalities, but I damned sure know my way around debate.
Bill could've laid or made points better, but with a couple of exceptions he was very on-point, whereas Greg repeatedly cited the "Bomber Mafia" in a debate where he was trying to show the "Bomber Mafia" turned the scales, or even existed with the power to determine not only doctrine but equipment. He also pushed goalposts by saying the "Bomber Mafia" was only about 8th AF, wobbling around about 5th AF, and totally discounting 15th AF experiences.
Bill was of course hampered by technical issues, at which (snicker) a conspiracist might raise his his eyebrows. I think he did fine, though not enough to get Greg's crowd to stop and think.
WW2 aircraft and drop tanks were also vented so your first point is not relevant.
The rest is correct. Multiple aircraft used pressurised drop tanks for the reason you stated and some aircraft used the pressurised drop tanks to top up the main fuel tank which eliminates the requirement for the pilot to select the drop tank and then go back to the main tank.
Hi,The jet aircraft fuel pump configuration is why they do not need pressurised tanks and there are a number of other factors involved.
In a nutshell - WW2 fighters suffered from vapour lock, especially from drop tanks, because they used suction pumps. Modern jet aircraft can not suffer from vapour lock because they use pressure pumps.
In all post 1950 jet aircraft the fuel pump is mounted either inside the fuel tank at the lowest point of the fuel tank or below the lowest point of the fuel tank. This means that the pump is never sucking fuel in. The in flow is supplied by the fuel itself and gravity. Even if the pump was to suck air for a second the moment as the wing drops low the moment the wing becomes level again the fuel flow recommences.
On most ww2 aircraft, especially fighters, the fuel pump was a suction pump fitted between the tanks and the engine and I cannot think of any ww2 fighter that did not share a single pump between all tanks. This pump was usually fitted above the lowest point in every tank and was "far" above the lowest point of any drop tank and the lowest point in the tank is where the fuel is drawn from. Once primed it works perfectly until it loses suction for any reason and then it would not again lift any fuel unless there is an initial flow supplied to the pump by gravity to re-prime it.
The second major factor that Greg totally ignores is that a perfect suction pump can only lift fluid the equivalent of one atmosphere of the fluid - in the case of water about 32ft or 9.75metres at standard sea level pressure of 1013hpa. In simple terms this is because the pump creates a suction and the atmospheric pressure forces the fluid to flow towards the suction.
Because avgas has a lower specific gravity than water (0.72) the pump can lift fuel further - about 44 feet/13m.
As an aircraft climbs the atmospheric pressure drops and the ability of the pump to lift liquid drops by the same amount. At 20C ground temperature the temperature at 20,000ft is -20C and the air pressure drops to just 445 hpa. At that altitude a perfect water pump will lift water 14 feet or avgas 19 feet so a perfect pump is now less than 1/2 as efficient as at sea level.
The temperature at 30,000ft is -40C and the air pressure drops to just 265 hpa. At that altitude a perfect water pump will lift water 8.3 feet or avgas 11.5 feet. A perfect pump is now less than 1/3 as efficient as at sea level.
The temperature at 40,000ft is -55C and the air pressure drops to just 150 hpa. At that altitude a perfect water pump will lift water 4.7 feet or avgas 6.4 feet. A perfect pump is now only 1/7 as efficient as at sea level
The third major factor, and the most important, that Greg ignores is that fuel contains many different compounds and those various compounds gasify (boil) at different air pressures and temperatures. This is produces what is called vapour lock and is discussed at Vapor lock - Wikipedia. There are only two ways to prevent vapour lock. Change the fuel specification to something far closer to diesel or kerosene, which will destroy the engine, or pressurise the fuel tank.
WW2 fighters suffered from vapour lock because they used suction pumps. Modern jet aircraft can not suffer from vapour lock because they use pressure pumps.
General Kenney so hated by the Bomber Mafia he became the first head of SAC. Yes the bomber mafia was all powerful unless you were in the SW Pacific.He also pushed goalposts by saying the "Bomber Mafia" was only about 8th AF, wobbling around about 5th AF, and totally discounting 15th AF experiences.
I know he's asked for debate. I've paid for an argument but apparently this is only contradiction.That includes his infamous "P-47 #6: Range, Deceit, and Treachery" video. He is arguing that the only reason the P-47 didn't have the range to escort was political. Says he'll only debate someone credentialed or another YouTuber. Not sure if it's a genuine proposal or just to placate his fans; but I do know he's unfairly crapped on some people here so this might be your opportunity to set the record straight.
Is this the "pump" you mean "between the tanks and the engine" and "share a single pump between all tanks"?
Eng
on my laptopWhere were your notes?
Actually the Combat Box formation, as defined by creating formation flight assembly to a.) concentrate bombers into a small (er) volume of space to concentrate bomb pattern, b.) create interlocking fields of fire for gunners, c.) 'Stagger' the formations to ensure best possible safetyfrom aircraft in box formation fro other bombers at different altitudes - properly belongs to LeMay.That's all true, but Douhet was touting bombers on deep penetration raids in 1921 and there's no doubt his proponents were looking forward to something similar. Moreover, the bomber "combat box" formation predated the war and was a clear indication of the belief that unescorted bomber raids were feasible . . . until experience proved the were not. To what degree this failure of imagination delayed subsequent long range fighter development seems a reasonable argument.
No. The engine driven pump is the last pump in the system.
Immersed pumps were first used in the USAAF on the P-47 and later P-51's. From memory the P-47 only had one immersed pump per wing and definitely also had another electric pump preceding the engine driven pump. Late model P-38s had immersed pumps in the outboard tanks only.
Greg seems to forget about all these pumps and states that pressurizing fuel tanks is not necessary. As will be seen below it is necessary on all aircraft operating above about 12-15,000 ft.
Here are the electric boost pump positions of a variety of aircraft, including P-47 seeing that it Greg's fetish. You will note that both the P-51 and P-47 have pressurised drop tanks, which Greg says is not necessary. Early P-38 aircraft did not have pressurised drop tanks but later ones almost certainly did have.
P-38 - item R - one per engine in the centre nacelle on early aircraft and additional ones in the pylons on later aircraft. Used continuously above 12,000ft to prevent vapour lock. Early drop tanks are vented to atmosphere and depend on the electric and engine pumps to suck fuel out of them. One of many reasons to use the fuel in the drops as soon as practical (usually after 15 min flight).
He is generally credited with the finished product, and certainly refined it during the war. But the concept of self-defending bombers with interlocking fields of fire was hardly new. In fact, that was one of the leading pre-war theories on how to protect deep raids. From USAF Historical Study no. 136: DEVELOPMENT OF THE LONG-RANGE ESCORT FIGHTER:Actually the Combat Box formation, as defined by creating formation flight assembly to a.) concentrate bombers into a small (er) volume of space to concentrate bomb pattern, b.) create interlocking fields of fire for gunners, c.) 'Stagger' the formations to ensure best possible safetyfrom aircraft in box formation fro other bombers at different altitudes - properly belongs to LeMay.
As an alternative to a long-range fighter, the AAF in June, 1941, began to consider development of an escort bomber, known provisionally as the XB-40 or YB-40. The approach ultimately decided upon was to arm a B-17 heavily, add armor to it, and employ it as a "destroyer escort plane." This aircraft was designed specifically to protect heavy bomber formations in deep penetrations over Germany. The YB-40's, masquerading as bombers, were to fly in the most vulnerable positions of the combat boxes and thus deter German fighters from closing for combat.85 The idea for such a plane was not new. Indeed, plans for a large aircraft to serve as escort can be traced to the early twenties, when the Air Service advocated employment of the two-seater as a support plane for bombers. From that time on, the idea of an escort hinged in part on a large plane, generally regarded as a multiplace type. Many airmen believed that escort bombers could supply a "hard crust" to bomber formations by increasing their defensive firepower.86 While earlier attempts to adapt existing bombers to escort purposes proved impractical, the idea retained its appeal.
Early in the decade strategic bombardment theorists included fighter escort in the strategic bombardment theory, but when the speeds of the multi–engine bombers outstripped the speeds of pursuit, fighter escort was excluded from the theory. The Air Corps became polarized between bomber and pursuit advocates, and a doctrine emerged stressing the invincibility of self–protecting bomber formations while devaluing pursuit. Increased speed became the ultimate goal for pursuit aircraft design, even at the expense of range.
Later in October [1942] Eaker reiterated his earlier conviction that daylight bombing was feasible without fighter escort. "You have probably been asked," he wrote to Arnold, "whether it is feasible to bomb objectives in Germany by daylight without fighter cover. I am ablsolutely convinced that the following measures are sound . . . . Three hundred heavy bombers can attack any target in Germany by daylight with less than four per cent losses. A smaller number of bombers will naturally suffer heavier losses."55 Eaker concluded that daylight bombing with B-17's and -24's was not only practical but economical.56
I've paid for an argument but apparently this is only contradiction.
You're one up on me brother, I won't give him the satisfaction of any views. I have a negative tolerance for conspiracy asshats.I'm not a fan of how he talks to his viewers. I do watch his vids and try to glom some stuff.
Got agree with that observation. The RAF's pre war designed 'heavies' were *supposed* to provide effective mutual support and protection using their powered turrets and were operated well beyond the range of any available escort (which were all essentially interceptors without range as a critical design criteria)He is generally credited with the finished product, and certainly refined it during the war. But the concept of self-defending bombers with interlocking fields of fire was hardly new. In fact, that was one of the leading pre-war theories on how to protect deep raids.