Much has been made about patrol heights being much lower than 30,000ft. There were sound reasons for that. Firstly you use less fuel so can patrol longer, the most important issue is they were off the ground. Also being at high altitude isnt good for humans. The "dead zone" for mountaineers is around 26,000ft above this you will eventually die without Oxygen, but even with Oxygen the low air pressure causes problems that can be fatal. Reading Parks instructions you can see he has this in mind along with everything else. Pilots on both sides hated this era of the battle, not least because it made them feel ill. Effects of high altitude on humans - Wikipedia
Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)
- Thread starter greybeard
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GregP
Major
Of course Chuck Yeager liked the P-39.
It was likely the highest-performing aircraft he had flown when he first got into one. Before that, he flew Primary, Basic, and Advanced trainers and then, likely, the P-40. Compared with the above, the P-39 seemed supreme. Of course, his opinion might have changed had he flown a P-38 or a P-51 or a Spitfire before he flew the P-39.
But, that's a "what if" since we know he hadn't flown higher-performing types before he flew a P-39.
It was likely the highest-performing aircraft he had flown when he first got into one. Before that, he flew Primary, Basic, and Advanced trainers and then, likely, the P-40. Compared with the above, the P-39 seemed supreme. Of course, his opinion might have changed had he flown a P-38 or a P-51 or a Spitfire before he flew the P-39.
But, that's a "what if" since we know he hadn't flown higher-performing types before he flew a P-39.
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From what I have seen, when the sound barrier was broken, journalists ran out of sensible questions about breaking the sound barrier an started asking stupid pointed questions about Bell who made the plane he broke the sound barrier in and the P-39 that he trained in.
GregP
Major
Maybe they SHOULD have asked why the Miles M-52 didn't break the sound barrier first and where the F-86 one-piece tailplane came from. The one-piece stab came from the Miles M-52 and it was 95% complete when the British suddenly ceased work on it and gave the research data to the USA. I'm sure it was all "politics," but I can't prove it.
buffnut453
Captain
Exactly...and since the most prominent Miles product in WW2 was the Master trainer, we wouldn't even be having these arguments.
Anybody got a time machine I can borrow?
Shortround6
Major General
Posted back in post #1616. This are dates and weights of the P-400 project gaining weight from Bell records according to Birch Matthews.
date.............................Empty...................useful load...................Gross...........................notes
Feb 1940....................4,524.......................1,325...........................5,849............................1 cannon, two machine guns
March 1940..............4,715.......................1,285............................6,000............................2machine guns added in each wing
May 1940.................5,149........................1,841............................7,000............................wing gun caliber increased
July 1940...................5,383.......................1,974.............................7,350...........................Armour and self-sealing tanks added
Jan 1941....................5,406.......................2,006.............................7,466...........................Minor empty and useful load increases
June 1941.................5,548........................2,087.............................7,635.........................Engine and fixed equipment weight increases
July 1941...................5,550.......................2,087..............................7,637..........................actual weight of Serial number AH 621
Now to splice in some other dates.
date.............................Empty...................useful load...................Gross...........................notes
Feb 1940....................4,524.......................1,325...........................5,849............................1 cannon, two machine guns
March 1940..............4,715.......................1,285............................6,000............................2machine guns added in each wing
April, 1940, French order 165 planes after several weeks (months?) of talks.
May 1940.................5,149........................1,841............................7,000............................wing gun caliber increased
July 1940 work is completed on the British take over of the French order and add 5 planes,
July 1940...................5,383.......................1,974.............................7,350...........................Armour and self-sealing tanks added
Sept 1940, The US orders the P-39D and changes the P-39C order form 80 planes to 20 Cs and 60 Ds.
Sept 1940, the first YP-39 is completed
Jan 1941....................5,406.......................2,006.............................7,466...........................Minor empty and useful load increases
Jan 1941, First P-39C is completed
Jan 1941, The British and Bell agree on changes to the P-400 specification.
March 1941The US passes the lend Lease act.
APRIL 1940, P-400 AH 571 flies, the modified one that just barely passes the speed test.
June 1941.................5,548........................2,087.............................7,635.........................Engine and fixed equipment weight increases
July 1941...................5,550.......................2,087..............................7,637..........................actual weight of Serial number AH 621
July 1941The British and Bell agree to the last modification of the P-400 specification. and order 505 additional planes.
July 1941, the 3 lend lease P-39Cs show up in England for familiarization before the the production P-400s show up.
July 1941, end of July the first production P-400s show up in England.
Now who knew what and when???????
British don't seem to have ordered the "heater" unless there is direct evidence they did so. the French order the four wing guns.
The British just went along, or didn't have them taken out.
By Sept 1940 the US is going along with the four wing guns and going along with the armor and self sealing tanks.
So when did the British make the changes so they could get out of the contract and get the planes free with lend lease????
Jan is too soon as lend lease doesn't exist yet. July is too late as why bother to order 500 planes with specifications you are trying to screw up???
date.............................Empty...................useful load...................Gross...........................notes
Feb 1940....................4,524.......................1,325...........................5,849............................1 cannon, two machine guns
March 1940..............4,715.......................1,285............................6,000............................2machine guns added in each wing
May 1940.................5,149........................1,841............................7,000............................wing gun caliber increased
July 1940...................5,383.......................1,974.............................7,350...........................Armour and self-sealing tanks added
Jan 1941....................5,406.......................2,006.............................7,466...........................Minor empty and useful load increases
June 1941.................5,548........................2,087.............................7,635.........................Engine and fixed equipment weight increases
July 1941...................5,550.......................2,087..............................7,637..........................actual weight of Serial number AH 621
Now to splice in some other dates.
date.............................Empty...................useful load...................Gross...........................notes
Feb 1940....................4,524.......................1,325...........................5,849............................1 cannon, two machine guns
March 1940..............4,715.......................1,285............................6,000............................2machine guns added in each wing
April, 1940, French order 165 planes after several weeks (months?) of talks.
May 1940.................5,149........................1,841............................7,000............................wing gun caliber increased
July 1940 work is completed on the British take over of the French order and add 5 planes,
July 1940...................5,383.......................1,974.............................7,350...........................Armour and self-sealing tanks added
Sept 1940, The US orders the P-39D and changes the P-39C order form 80 planes to 20 Cs and 60 Ds.
Sept 1940, the first YP-39 is completed
Jan 1941....................5,406.......................2,006.............................7,466...........................Minor empty and useful load increases
Jan 1941, First P-39C is completed
Jan 1941, The British and Bell agree on changes to the P-400 specification.
March 1941The US passes the lend Lease act.
APRIL 1940, P-400 AH 571 flies, the modified one that just barely passes the speed test.
June 1941.................5,548........................2,087.............................7,635.........................Engine and fixed equipment weight increases
July 1941...................5,550.......................2,087..............................7,637..........................actual weight of Serial number AH 621
July 1941The British and Bell agree to the last modification of the P-400 specification. and order 505 additional planes.
July 1941, the 3 lend lease P-39Cs show up in England for familiarization before the the production P-400s show up.
July 1941, end of July the first production P-400s show up in England.
Now who knew what and when???????
British don't seem to have ordered the "heater" unless there is direct evidence they did so. the French order the four wing guns.
The British just went along, or didn't have them taken out.
By Sept 1940 the US is going along with the four wing guns and going along with the armor and self sealing tanks.
So when did the British make the changes so they could get out of the contract and get the planes free with lend lease????
Jan is too soon as lend lease doesn't exist yet. July is too late as why bother to order 500 planes with specifications you are trying to screw up???
It was an agreement going back to the start of lend lease, if by "one piece tailplane" you mean where the rear wings dont have elevators but the whole thing moves, this was tried out on Spitfires, so the UK were bound by contract to share the information.
buffnut453
Captain
Thanks for posting these details SR6. I'm intrigued by the 1,000 lb addition between March and May 1940 due to "wing gun caliber increased." I wonder what the nature of that change might be....going from 30 cal to .303 perhaps? Regardless, it was a BIG increase in weight.
Glider
Captain
I believe that the actual agreement was that both parties shared information but it was only one way in reality
I believe the British specified 900lbs of unsalted tea to be installed in the cockpit.
Glider
Captain
Much better for morale than a paraffin heater
And it weighs more so the contract can be cancelled, a real win-win.
Shortround6
Major General
The Manuals for the P-39C and P-38D-1 have some interesting details.
Well, the caliber increase was going from the French 7.5mm machine guns to the British 7.7mm machine guns. Obviously something else was going on.
buffnut453
Captain
Actually, adding 350lb for armour and self-sealing tanks doesn't seem like an exorbitant amount. It seems like the early Spits added about 250lb so, yes, the P-400, did have more weight added but I'm not sure 100lb would massively change performance. It's certainly not enough to cause the contract to be cancelled due to poor performance.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Doenitz is a moron too, apparently.
In 1940 the British added a variable pitch prop then a constant speed prop plus they added armour and started using 100 octane fuel. The net result was improved performance. In terms of weight the different props were heavier and the added pilot armour helped adjust the CoG. The Spitfire doubled in weight in its service life, the only thing I have seen discussing weight being an issue on a Spitfire was with the use of 2 cannon + mgs as against 4 cannon, but that was to do with performance at extreme altitude. In all other cases like adding bombs or slipper tanks or whatever it was understood that the more stuff you carry the more you affect performance.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Aparently, so was Von Rundstedt, Churchill and Guiderian.
So he's in good company.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
That's a deal-breaker, fo sho.
It's wonderful how many experts one finds online.
The stuff Park and Dowding came out with would make any modern expert cringe, Spitfires at 30,000ft how ridiculous.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Yabut with how much tea aboard? The world wonders.
