Unsalted tea was freely available in UK, this is how the P-39 was hobbled from the start.
Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)
- Thread starter greybeard
- Start date
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Is it entirely possible that those Stewart-Warner heaters were in fact, tea warmers?
If Galland could have a cigar lighter in his cockpit, than why not?
buffnut453
Captain
Tea WARMER? Sacrilege…SACRILEGE I say!!! Her Majesty's Royal Air Force has specified water boilers in all long-range aircraft since, I believe, the 1920s for the making of said life-saving beverage. Warming up tea is just plain WRONG on SO many levels!!!
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I blame the East India Company!
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I'm guessing a microwave is not in the equation.
Shortround6
Major General
The Manuals for the P-39C and P-38D-1 have some interesting details.
From the weight data page of the P-39C Manual and the weight and balance chart of the P-39D-1 manual, they do not have the same format.
Airplane......................................................................P-39C..........................................................P-39D-1 clean..........P-39D-1 with drop tank
weight empty.........................................................5016lbs*......................................................5599lbs.........................5599lbs
Tactical items
Guns
37mm..........................................................................205lbs........................................................-------................................
20mm..........................................................................-------.........................................................131lbs...............................
Two .50 cal.................................................................128lbs..........................................................139lbs.............................
two .30 cal..................................................................41.6lbs......................................................--------.............................
Four .30 cal.................................................................-------........................................................95lbs................................
Misc, equip, for guns..............................................74lbs.......................................................... 5lbs..................................
Photographic............................................................------..........................................................8lbs...................................
Oxygen.........................................................................20lbs..........................................................8lbs..................................
Pyrotechnics..............................................................------.........................................................10lbs.................................
Radio......................................................................included in empty weight..........................129lbs............................
Armor plate & Glass...............................................131lbs..........................................................248lbs..............................
Pilot...............................................................................160lbs..........................................................160lbs............................
oil.....................................................................................71lbs.............................................................88lbs............................
tactical weight empty................................................5667lbs.....................................................6618lbs...........................6618lbs
Fuel, internal............................................................624lbs (104 US gal).................................720lbs (120 US gal)
Full internal fuel......................................................1020lbs.........................................................720lbs
fuel external........................................................................................................................................----......................................450lbs
tank weight........................................................................................................................................-----........................................71lbs
extra oil.........................................................................35lbs............................................................-----.......................................included above in tank weight
ammunition.................................................................215lbs..........................................................421lbs..................................
Ballast weights............................................................-----...................................................................88lbs...............................70lbs7857lbs
Gross weight. .............................................................6684.5lbs....................................................7857lbs...............................8368lbs
The Manual for the P-39C is dated Feb 15th 1941 and there are some later revisions. The revision for the weight page is dated 3-20-41.
On page 21 of the manual paragraph, f.
Load factors, -- The design standards for all previous pursuit airplanes in the service have been for a design load (maximum expected load) of 8.0 positive and 4.0 negative load factors. This airplane is built for a design load of 7.5 positive and 3.75 negative load factors.
The top speed is calculated as 391mph at 15000ft, however there is an asterisk and the note below says that "temporary restrictions of engine operation prohibit the attainment of these values."
On the P-39D-1s there is very little explaination of the ballast weights, There are five 17.5 lb weights listed with locations of "Each 2 forward, 2 cent, 1 aft", But doesn't say where any of those locations are (all in gun bay or spread throughout the plane?) when carrying the drop tank or bomb one weight is taken out but so far it doesn't say which one.
It appears that a lot of the weight on the P-39C in the misc equip for guns catagory was either lumped in with guns themselves or put in another catagory. The guns did not get heavier in later aircraft.
From the weight data page of the P-39C Manual and the weight and balance chart of the P-39D-1 manual, they do not have the same format.
Airplane......................................................................P-39C..........................................................P-39D-1 clean..........P-39D-1 with drop tank
weight empty.........................................................5016lbs*......................................................5599lbs.........................5599lbs
Tactical items
Guns
37mm..........................................................................205lbs........................................................-------................................
20mm..........................................................................-------.........................................................131lbs...............................
Two .50 cal.................................................................128lbs..........................................................139lbs.............................
two .30 cal..................................................................41.6lbs......................................................--------.............................
Four .30 cal.................................................................-------........................................................95lbs................................
Misc, equip, for guns..............................................74lbs.......................................................... 5lbs..................................
Photographic............................................................------..........................................................8lbs...................................
Oxygen.........................................................................20lbs..........................................................8lbs..................................
Pyrotechnics..............................................................------.........................................................10lbs.................................
Radio......................................................................included in empty weight..........................129lbs............................
Armor plate & Glass...............................................131lbs..........................................................248lbs..............................
Pilot...............................................................................160lbs..........................................................160lbs............................
oil.....................................................................................71lbs.............................................................88lbs............................
tactical weight empty................................................5667lbs.....................................................6618lbs...........................6618lbs
Fuel, internal............................................................624lbs (104 US gal).................................720lbs (120 US gal)
Full internal fuel......................................................1020lbs.........................................................720lbs
fuel external........................................................................................................................................----......................................450lbs
tank weight........................................................................................................................................-----........................................71lbs
extra oil.........................................................................35lbs............................................................-----.......................................included above in tank weight
ammunition.................................................................215lbs..........................................................421lbs..................................
Ballast weights............................................................-----...................................................................88lbs...............................70lbs7857lbs
Gross weight. .............................................................6684.5lbs....................................................7857lbs...............................8368lbs
The Manual for the P-39C is dated Feb 15th 1941 and there are some later revisions. The revision for the weight page is dated 3-20-41.
On page 21 of the manual paragraph, f.
Load factors, -- The design standards for all previous pursuit airplanes in the service have been for a design load (maximum expected load) of 8.0 positive and 4.0 negative load factors. This airplane is built for a design load of 7.5 positive and 3.75 negative load factors.
The top speed is calculated as 391mph at 15000ft, however there is an asterisk and the note below says that "temporary restrictions of engine operation prohibit the attainment of these values."
On the P-39D-1s there is very little explaination of the ballast weights, There are five 17.5 lb weights listed with locations of "Each 2 forward, 2 cent, 1 aft", But doesn't say where any of those locations are (all in gun bay or spread throughout the plane?) when carrying the drop tank or bomb one weight is taken out but so far it doesn't say which one.
It appears that a lot of the weight on the P-39C in the misc equip for guns catagory was either lumped in with guns themselves or put in another catagory. The guns did not get heavier in later aircraft.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
As far as the unsubstantiated claim of the British wanting to get out of their P-39 contract by adding equipment and weight to the aircraft, I caught this tonight when browsing on the P-38 page on Wiki. I left the citation notes in.
By June 1941, the War Ministry had cause to reconsider their earlier aircraft specifications based on experience gathered in the Battle of Britain and The Blitz.[63] British displeasure with the Lockheed order came to the fore in July, and on 5 August 1941 they modified the contract such that 143 aircraft would be delivered as previously ordered, to be known as "Lightning (Mark) I," and 524 would be upgraded to US-standard P-38E specifications with a top speed of 415 mph (668 km/h) at 20,000 ft (6,100 m) guaranteed, to be called "Lightning II" for British service.[63] Later that summer an RAF test pilot reported back from Burbank with a poor assessment of the "tail flutter" situation, and the British cancelled all but three of the 143 Lightning Is.[63] As a loss of approximately US$15M was involved, Lockheed reviewed their contracts and decided to hold the British to the original order. Negotiations grew bitter and stalled.[63] Everything changed after the 7 December 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor after which the United States government seized some 40 of the Model 322s for West Coast defense;[64] subsequently all British Lightnings were delivered to the USAAF starting in January 1942. The USAAF lent the RAF three of the aircraft, which were delivered by sea in March 1942[65] and were test flown no earlier than May[66] at Cunliffe-Owen Aircraft Swaythling, the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment and the Royal Aircraft Establishment.[63] The A&AEE example was unarmed, lacked turbochargers and restricted to 300 mph (480 km/h); though the undercarriage was praised and flight on one engine described as comfortable.[67] These three were subsequently returned to the USAAF; one in December 1942 and the others in July 1943.[65] Of the remaining 140 Lightning Is, 19 were not modified and were designated by the USAAF as RP-322-I ('R' for 'Restricted', because non-counter-rotating propellers were considered more dangerous on takeoff), while 121 were converted to non-turbo-supercharged counter-rotating V-1710F-2 engines and designated P-322-II. All 121 were used as advanced trainers; a few were still serving that role in 1945.[66] A few RP-322s were later used as test modification platforms such as for smoke-laying canisters. The RP-322 was a fairly fast aircraft below 16,000 ft (4,900 m) and well-behaved as a trainer
I think most of this came from Bodie's book The Lockheed P-38 Lightning: The Definitive Story of Lockheed's P-38 Fighter
I think if what our "expert" says was really true, Bell "would have" followed suit. Maybe Lockheed had better Lawyers?
By June 1941, the War Ministry had cause to reconsider their earlier aircraft specifications based on experience gathered in the Battle of Britain and The Blitz.[63] British displeasure with the Lockheed order came to the fore in July, and on 5 August 1941 they modified the contract such that 143 aircraft would be delivered as previously ordered, to be known as "Lightning (Mark) I," and 524 would be upgraded to US-standard P-38E specifications with a top speed of 415 mph (668 km/h) at 20,000 ft (6,100 m) guaranteed, to be called "Lightning II" for British service.[63] Later that summer an RAF test pilot reported back from Burbank with a poor assessment of the "tail flutter" situation, and the British cancelled all but three of the 143 Lightning Is.[63] As a loss of approximately US$15M was involved, Lockheed reviewed their contracts and decided to hold the British to the original order. Negotiations grew bitter and stalled.[63] Everything changed after the 7 December 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor after which the United States government seized some 40 of the Model 322s for West Coast defense;[64] subsequently all British Lightnings were delivered to the USAAF starting in January 1942. The USAAF lent the RAF three of the aircraft, which were delivered by sea in March 1942[65] and were test flown no earlier than May[66] at Cunliffe-Owen Aircraft Swaythling, the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment and the Royal Aircraft Establishment.[63] The A&AEE example was unarmed, lacked turbochargers and restricted to 300 mph (480 km/h); though the undercarriage was praised and flight on one engine described as comfortable.[67] These three were subsequently returned to the USAAF; one in December 1942 and the others in July 1943.[65] Of the remaining 140 Lightning Is, 19 were not modified and were designated by the USAAF as RP-322-I ('R' for 'Restricted', because non-counter-rotating propellers were considered more dangerous on takeoff), while 121 were converted to non-turbo-supercharged counter-rotating V-1710F-2 engines and designated P-322-II. All 121 were used as advanced trainers; a few were still serving that role in 1945.[66] A few RP-322s were later used as test modification platforms such as for smoke-laying canisters. The RP-322 was a fairly fast aircraft below 16,000 ft (4,900 m) and well-behaved as a trainer
I think most of this came from Bodie's book The Lockheed P-38 Lightning: The Definitive Story of Lockheed's P-38 Fighter
I think if what our "expert" says was really true, Bell "would have" followed suit. Maybe Lockheed had better Lawyers?
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Excellent work Short. So the P-39C had 131lbs of armor plate/glass. I knew it had the armor glass front and back from AHT, but didn't know it also had some armor plate. The 37mm cannon appears a little light, in the later P-39s it is listed at 238/240lbs. Extra weight is probably in "misc. equipment, for guns" 74lbs. Later models list that as "armament provisions", which I think means gun mounts, chargers, heaters and ammunition boxes.
The D-1 (for export) was a virtual copy of the P-400 with the 20mm cannon. 7850lbs gross weight was just too heavy to be a competitive fighter considering contemporary Spitfire V weighed 6600lbs and 109F weighed 6000lbs and both had more powerful engines. Delete the extra armor plate 117lbs, 30cals with ammo 355lbs and the radio 129lbs (I believe that was the IFF radio which wouldn't be needed in NG in 1942) and it weighs 7250lbs. I think it would have made a big difference in performance, especially in climb.
wuzak
Captain
Why do you have the fascination with comparing the weight of the P-39 with two aircraft that were fundamentally lighter?
Why do you compare the P-39 to two, at that time, purely ETO fighters when you talk about its use in New Guinea for one moment in time?
Why do you think the IFF is a) not needed and b) weighs 130lbs? I thought the weight thing was dispelled a 100 pages ago. Also, what other US aircraft are in the region at that time, and did they have IFF?
Why do you think the extra 100-odd pounds of armour plate was not necessary? I know you have a bug up your arse about the nose armour and believing it unnecessary and that other aircraft didn't have that - mainly because other aircraft didn't have a remote gearbox and weren't nearly as tricky to prevent the CoG getting too far rearwards.
If you remove the wing guns will you have enough firepower and rate of fire to get hits on enemy aircraft? Considering that the enemy is more manoeuvrable and the P-39 hasn't much endurance.
The Spitfire had 6 guns - 2 x 20mm and 4 x 0.303".
The Bf 109 had 3 guns - 1 x 20mm (or 15mm) and 2 x 7.92mm. The F-4 could be fitted with an additional 2 x 20mm in under wing gondalas. The Bf 109 F1/2 with 3 guns was considered to have a light armament.
Yet, you propose a similar armament for the P-39 - albeit with heavier secondary weapons (the 0.5" mgs, considering that the aircraft was built around having a cannon firing through the hub, the cannon would surely be its primary weapon?).
Glider
Captain
Since when has logic had any place in the thread. Personally I like the idea of taking out the radio. I am so confident that this would have not gone down well in the combat units
Take out any instrument or device that wasnt in the Wright flyer, obviously not needed.
Glider
Captain
Your so right and there plenty of room to drop in the merlin 61, no armour to remove, no IFF to worry about. By the logic of the thread I reckon your on to a winner.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Why do you care? Why do you feel compelled to reply to my every post? ALL this has been posted on here lots of times, hence the groundhog theme.
GregP
Major
Why do you persist with the P-39 fixation? A large part of what you have claimed for the P-39 has been shown to be incorrect, and everyone is pretty sick of P-39s. If you magically went away (and I didn't suggest that), I doubt if anyone would mention P-39s for the next 5 years or more, just out of relief to be done with it.
Let it go, PLEASE. Nobody cares, but it is getting hard to ignore claims that aren't true. You ask why Wuzak, one of our long-time knowledgeable posters, retorts? He's trying his best to politically ask you to desist with the P-39 stuff. I'm not very political. There are 1,000 other WWII airplanes that are being neglected, and the P-39 doesn't deserve the attention it is getting.
This isn't personal against YOU; we're just sick of the P-39. Completely. Why don't you switch over to something like the Ha 139? It wasn't a fighter, but thankfully isn't a P-39, either, and would be a welcome diversion from continuous P-39 trivia, much of which is incorrect again and again and again and ... well, you get it, or you really SHOULD get it. We're on page 109 ... largely about the P-39. C'mon, enough is enough, isn't it?
Cheers.
Let it go, PLEASE. Nobody cares, but it is getting hard to ignore claims that aren't true. You ask why Wuzak, one of our long-time knowledgeable posters, retorts? He's trying his best to politically ask you to desist with the P-39 stuff. I'm not very political. There are 1,000 other WWII airplanes that are being neglected, and the P-39 doesn't deserve the attention it is getting.
This isn't personal against YOU; we're just sick of the P-39. Completely. Why don't you switch over to something like the Ha 139? It wasn't a fighter, but thankfully isn't a P-39, either, and would be a welcome diversion from continuous P-39 trivia, much of which is incorrect again and again and again and ... well, you get it, or you really SHOULD get it. We're on page 109 ... largely about the P-39. C'mon, enough is enough, isn't it?
Cheers.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
With that said this was a highly educational thread for me. Especially the simple explanation of C.O.G. issues using paper airplanes.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Hmmm. "Neither type (MkII Spitfires and Hurricanes) promised to be a satisfactory aircraft at over 25000'." And "the 109E with a 550lb bomb had a ceiling of 25000' at most." "Generally only squadrons that were already airborne had a chance to close with the enemy (at 30000')." "The function of these squadrons was not to intercept as soon as possible but to cover those squadrons from London who were still gaining height." Sounds to me like the British fighters had a very hard time over 25000' and the bomb carrying 109Es could not get over 25000'. Lots of talk about ordering the British fighters to 30000' but also very hard for them to get there. This was all only during the last month of the BoB (October).
I will give you that the 109E apparently could cruise at 30000' but both British fighters had a very difficult time getting over 25000'.
And a bomb-laden 109E could not get over 25000'.
Why would the British even worry about 109Es at those heights? The 109E bombers couldn't hit anything with any accuracy from that altitude so they were doing minimal if any damage. The LW was just trying to lure the British up to those heights for combat. The goal of the British interceptors was to destroy enemy bombers, not chase after fighters.
I still don't see much fighting at 30000' and nothing over that height. And for absolutely sure no 109E bombers were at that height.
Who says the bomb carrying Bf109s only carried a 250Kg bomb? I have read on this thread that they also carried a 125Kg bomb, that wouldnt be because they had run out of the larger ones, but to get higher There were also Jabo Bf109s made to carry up to 4 x 110lb bombs. They dont have to hit anything accurately, they just need to make a lot of bangs all day to keep London in the air raid shelters, this has been said before and all the nonsense about planes not getting to 30,000ft has too. When Park and Dowding addressed the issue you can be sure it was an issue. There is plenty of stuff about planes over 30,000ft if you choose to ignore or refuse to read it that is your issue. It just looks like weird denial in the face of obvious facts to me.
Me too, I wasnt aware how many planes were coming in at 30,000ft until some recent posts, it was a real headache for Dowding Park and everyone in London.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Why? - BEACUSE IT THE ENEMY, LOL! And during that part of the war, aside from destroying the UK's ability to wage war, Hitler wanted to diminish the British people's determination to fight. Lobbing bombs over a large population area, especially at night was the perfect way to do this
