I think he is nearly there, just need to discredit or dismiss FDR and Ike and the job is done.
Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)
- Thread starter greybeard
- Start date
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
That's not even mentioning the armor!
I know little about the airplane itself, so I appreciate the back-and-forth.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I can't tell you how many times I've argued FDR was a craptastic president, or how I know that.
Mainly because I don't think I've ever argued that, and I don't have the experience to make that judgement.
Andrew Arthy
Airman 1st Class
Hi,
From a November 1940 report on three captured Bf 109 fighter-bomber pilots, based on interrogations and secret recordings of their conversations, describing their bombing missions over England:
"The normal operational procedure of this Staffel is to fly at about 26,000 feet, and dive at a previously arranged angle between 40 and 60 degrees. They pull out at 16,000 feet. ... The escort flew at either side and to the rear of the bombers, two Staffeln flying at between 1,800 and 2,500 feet above, and two Staffeln between 600 and 1,000 feet below." Source: NA AIR 40/3127, A.I.1.(k) Report no. 912/1940
Bf 109 fighter-bomber pilot Viktor Kraft, from a different unit and shot down on 11 December 1940, mentioned: "our normal height of 7,000-8,000 metres". Source: Goss, Luftwaffe Fighter-Bombers Over Britain, p.54
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com
GregP
Major
OK, I won't use the word "we." I'm sick of the P-39 and am out of here.
There hasn't been much new information that wasn't well-known by WWII aviation fans, but there HAS been a lot of fantasy claims that are ludicrous. Enough for me. You folks who haven't had enough of P-39s, please enjoy. Really.
I have no dog in this hunt and will never claim the P-39 to be anything but an interim solution to a poorly-recognized problem. I love to see one flying today, but that won't make it a good WWII fighter, just a WWII survivor that happens to be flyable. That alone makes it worth it to me to watch one fly without giving it much combat credit to it that it doesn't deserve.
Cheers to everyone.
There hasn't been much new information that wasn't well-known by WWII aviation fans, but there HAS been a lot of fantasy claims that are ludicrous. Enough for me. You folks who haven't had enough of P-39s, please enjoy. Really.
I have no dog in this hunt and will never claim the P-39 to be anything but an interim solution to a poorly-recognized problem. I love to see one flying today, but that won't make it a good WWII fighter, just a WWII survivor that happens to be flyable. That alone makes it worth it to me to watch one fly without giving it much combat credit to it that it doesn't deserve.
Cheers to everyone.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
17-20 minutes after radar detection for a 109E to bomb, and it takes a Spitfire squadron 27 minutes to get to 30000'? Why bother. Even patrolling at 20000' the Spitfire has only about 30-40min patrol time, 15-20min after the second climb from 20000' to 30000'. The 109E will have already bombed or is just about to bomb by the time the Spitfires get up to 30000'. Not that the 109s could hit anything from that altitude anyway. Bombers with bombardiers and bombsights still weren't very accurate from 20000'.
The whole purpose of these 109E bomber raids was to draw the British into battle. As smart as the British were I doubt they took that bait very often. Their purpose was to destroy enemy bomber formations, not wasting valuable time and resources getting to 30000' to discourage some fighter-bombers who couldn't hit anything from high altitude anyway.
Is that a joke? What was fighter command for? You are not the person to decide what the RAF was for or how it should do its job, especially since your agenda is always something to do with the P-39. A few days ago you denied these raids did or could take place now you are the expert.
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Because of the gravity, bombs dropped always hit something, maybe a fuel storage tank or an empty field, whatever. But sometimes they explode amongst densely packed people. A couple examples, at first British ignored high flying (around 40,000 ft) Ju 86Rs, but on 28 August 1942 one of them dropped a bomb which hit in the centre of the Bristol killing 48 people and seriously wounding 26 and slightly injuring 30. Here in Helsinki in 1942 a single bomb dropped from high flying Pe-2 killed 42, mostly children. You might not know this but one of the main duties of air forces was and still is to protect the citizens of the country.
Ah, but if you dont bother about such attacks then the P-39 would be perfect for British use, so they had no reason to get out of the contract. Imagine if such an event took place in London and Dowding told Churchill "we cant be bothered, too much effort required".
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
So I guess those dispatches from Parks and Mallory were exaggerated? But wait, if I recall both Parks and Mallory were "just pilots" (Or at least they began their careers that way)
Even if one bomb landed on a laundromat in the middle of London, woke up a few hundred people, dispatched fireman and alerted air defenses, an objective was achieved. But wait, you read differently while sitting in your lounge chair
I would give this a rest. I'm trying not to get into this too much and have given up trying to educate you on things that I have actually done, (hell, you ignore our resident F-15 pilot) but you're really making a fool out of yourself.
Shortround6
Major General
What do 3.5 fairies look like?1/2 the number of angels?
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
But !
Now that we have all of the information from our resident "expert", it would seem that, if the Luftwaffe had been equipped with the P-39, and nothing else, they would have achieved total victory during the BoB, and eventually won the war .............
Now that we have all of the information from our resident "expert", it would seem that, if the Luftwaffe had been equipped with the P-39, and nothing else, they would have achieved total victory during the BoB, and eventually won the war .............
buffnut453
Captain
Congratulations! I hereby dub thee the honorific title of Bert Huggins, King Amongst Trolls (you could also have Tom or William Huggins if you prefer).
Every one of these points has been made before and every single one of them is countered by information that you choose to ignore. You refuse to engage with any of the reasoned posts that others make, and are entirely dismissive of contemporary records (except those that suit your argument).
I keep hoping that the sun will come up and turn Bert Huggins to stone so at least we can get on with discussions that collaborate to build knowledge....alas, we remain in utter darkness.
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33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,266
- Jan 31, 2021
Wouldn't that be the number of P-39s that can outperform the head of a pin?
Shortround6
Major General
Sometimes it leads to extra digging.
I think I know were part of the P-39/P-400 weight escalation came from. Just a theory.
The P-39C was rated at 7.5 positive Gs load factor and 3.75 negative and this was at 6662lbs (gross weight performance figures were calculated at) While the standard service load factor for US pursuit planes was supposed to be plus 8 and negative 4 (with plus 12 and negative 6(?) being the ultimate load factor).
The P-39C needed self sealing tanks at the least plus a few other desired upgrades.
At 7100lbs (full fuel and oil tanks and few minor items of equipment) a P-39C airframe would have been good for a ball park stress load of 7.04.
Perhaps this was too low for the USAAC?
Move the .30 cal guns to the wings (and add two more) is really going to push things over the top.
I have no idea how much structural bracing was needed to get the P-39D/P-400 up to the desired 8 G service load factor but I believe the change was made.
A chart provided by Neal Stirling ; Structure weight data and drag analysis.
Lists the Aircobra as having an ultimate load factor of 12 at 7400lbs. Ultimate load of 12 was the result of multiplying the service load of 8 by a safety factor of 1.5.
Bell had tried to build a light weight fighter but even before the P-39C the weight had escalated beyond the original calculations.
This was certainly not unheard of.
The sales Brochure for the Curtiss Hawk 75 list two different load factors for the Cyclone powered and Twin Wasp powered versions with the heavier Twin Wasp powered model having the lower load factor. Brochure states the Twin Wasp powered model could be provided at the standard 12 G ultimate load factor at additional cost and weight.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
What the hell's a burrahobbit?!
Oh, completely, the information that comes out is useful and appreciated, but it's the descent into pointless bickering and the constant going round in circles that is a trend of these threads.
