I think he is nearly there, just need to discredit or dismiss FDR and Ike and the job is done.
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I think he is nearly there, just need to discredit or dismiss FDR and Ike and the job is done.
For those new to the forum it is hard to explain how much my back hurt putting those fuel tanks in then taking them out, taking the wing guns out and putting them in again. The worst part was fitting the extra external fuel tank and the bomb in the same place, it gave the range and firepower needed for a fighter bomber but was actually a complete impossibility. Our expert is much more of an expert now than he was when he first started posting, because he has been educated by people who actually know more than he does about the P-39 and I am not one of them.
I think he is nearly there, just need to discredit or dismiss FDR and Ike and the job is done.
Hi,Hmmm. "Neither type (MkII Spitfires and Hurricanes) promised to be a satisfactory aircraft at over 25000'." And "the 109E with a 550lb bomb had a ceiling of 25000' at most." "Generally only squadrons that were already airborne had a chance to close with the enemy (at 30000')." "The function of these squadrons was not to intercept as soon as possible but to cover those squadrons from London who were still gaining height." Sounds to me like the British fighters had a very hard time over 25000' and the bomb carrying 109Es could not get over 25000'. Lots of talk about ordering the British fighters to 30000' but also very hard for them to get there. This was all only during the last month of the BoB (October).
I will give you that the 109E apparently could cruise at 30000' but both British fighters had a very difficult time getting over 25000'.
And a bomb-laden 109E could not get over 25000'.
Why would the British even worry about 109Es at those heights? The 109E bombers couldn't hit anything with any accuracy from that altitude so they were doing minimal if any damage. The LW was just trying to lure the British up to those heights for combat. The goal of the British interceptors was to destroy enemy bombers, not chase after fighters.
I still don't see much fighting at 30000' and nothing over that height. And for absolutely sure no 109E bombers were at that height.
17-20 minutes after radar detection for a 109E to bomb, and it takes a Spitfire squadron 27 minutes to get to 30000'? Why bother. Even patrolling at 20000' the Spitfire has only about 30-40min patrol time, 15-20min after the second climb from 20000' to 30000'. The 109E will have already bombed or is just about to bomb by the time the Spitfires get up to 30000'. Not that the 109s could hit anything from that altitude anyway. Bombers with bombardiers and bombsights still weren't very accurate from 20000'.Hi
For information, Park did concern himself on climb rates for squadrons, in Instruction No. 28 he has details of a single squadron plus the extra time taken by two or three squadrons in wings. He stresses the importance of getting a single squadron up to intercept and for the controllers not to wait to get the whole formation up to height.
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Mike
Is that a joke? What was fighter command for? You are not the person to decide what the RAF was for or how it should do its job, especially since your agenda is always something to do with the P-39. A few days ago you denied these raids did or could take place now you are the expert.17-20 minutes after radar detection for a 109E to bomb, and it takes a Spitfire squadron 27 minutes to get to 30000'? Why bother. Even patrolling at 20000' the Spitfire has only about 30-40min patrol time, 15-20min after the second climb from 20000' to 30000'. The 109E will have already bombed or is just about to bomb by the time the Spitfires get up to 30000'. Not that the 109s could hit anything from that altitude anyway. Bombers with bombardiers and bombsights still weren't very accurate from 20000'.
The whole purpose of these 109E bomber raids was to draw the British into battle. As smart as the British were I doubt they took that bait very often. Their purpose was to destroy enemy bomber formations, not wasting valuable time and resources getting to 30000' to discourage some fighter-bombers who couldn't hit anything from high altitude anyway.
Because of the gravity, bombs dropped always hit something, maybe a fuel storage tank or an empty field, whatever. But sometimes they explode amongst densely packed people. A couple examples, at first British ignored high flying (around 40,000 ft) Ju 86Rs, but on 28 August 1942 one of them dropped a bomb which hit in the centre of the Bristol killing 48 people and seriously wounding 26 and slightly injuring 30. Here in Helsinki in 1942 a single bomb dropped from high flying Pe-2 killed 42, mostly children. You might not know this but one of the main duties of air forces was and still is to protect the citizens of the country.17-20 minutes after radar detection for a 109E to bomb, and it takes a Spitfire squadron 27 minutes to get to 30000'? Why bother. Even patrolling at 20000' the Spitfire has only about 30-40min patrol time, 15-20min after the second climb from 20000' to 30000'. The 109E will have already bombed or is just about to bomb by the time the Spitfires get up to 30000'. Not that the 109s could hit anything from that altitude anyway. Bombers with bombardiers and bombsights still weren't very accurate from 20000'.
The whole purpose of these 109E bomber raids was to draw the British into battle. As smart as the British were I doubt they took that bait very often. Their purpose was to destroy enemy bomber formations, not wasting valuable time and resources getting to 30000' to discourage some fighter-bombers who couldn't hit anything from high altitude anyway.
Ah, but if you dont bother about such attacks then the P-39 would be perfect for British use, so they had no reason to get out of the contract. Imagine if such an event took place in London and Dowding told Churchill "we cant be bothered, too much effort required".Because of the gravity, bombs dropped always hit something, maybe a fuel storage tank or an empty field, whatever. But sometimes they explode amongst densely packed people. A couple examples, at first British ignored high flying (around 40,000 ft) Ju 86Rs, but on 28 August 1942 one of them dropped a bomb which hit in the centre of the Bristol killing 48 people and seriously wounding 26 and slightly injuring 30. Here in Helsinki in 1942 a single bomb dropped from high flying Pe-2 killed 42, mostly children. You might not know this but one of the main duties of air forces was and still is to protect the citizens of the country.
So I guess those dispatches from Parks and Mallory were exaggerated? But wait, if I recall both Parks and Mallory were "just pilots" (Or at least they began their careers that way)17-20 minutes after radar detection for a 109E to bomb, and it takes a Spitfire squadron 27 minutes to get to 30000'? Why bother. Even patrolling at 20000' the Spitfire has only about 30-40min patrol time, 15-20min after the second climb from 20000' to 30000'. The 109E will have already bombed or is just about to bomb by the time the Spitfires get up to 30000'. Not that the 109s could hit anything from that altitude anyway. Bombers with bombardiers and bombsights still weren't very accurate from 20000'.
The whole purpose of these 109E bomber raids was to draw the British into battle. As smart as the British were I doubt they took that bait very often. Their purpose was to destroy enemy bomber formations, not wasting valuable time and resources getting to 30000' to discourage some fighter-bombers who couldn't hit anything from high altitude anyway.
1/2 the number of angels?Does anyone know how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin?
What do 3.5 fairies look like?1/2 the number of angels?
17-20 minutes after radar detection for a 109E to bomb, and it takes a Spitfire squadron 27 minutes to get to 30000'? Why bother. Even patrolling at 20000' the Spitfire has only about 30-40min patrol time, 15-20min after the second climb from 20000' to 30000'. The 109E will have already bombed or is just about to bomb by the time the Spitfires get up to 30000'. Not that the 109s could hit anything from that altitude anyway. Bombers with bombardiers and bombsights still weren't very accurate from 20000'.
The whole purpose of these 109E bomber raids was to draw the British into battle. As smart as the British were I doubt they took that bait very often. Their purpose was to destroy enemy bomber formations, not wasting valuable time and resources getting to 30000' to discourage some fighter-bombers who couldn't hit anything from high altitude anyway.
Does anyone know how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin?
These threads always end up the same. Pointless circular arguments... Tiresome.
Congratulations! I hereby dub thee the honorific title of Bert Huggins, King Amongst Trolls (you could also have Tom or William Huggins if you prefer).
Every one of these points has been made before and every single one of them is countered by information that you choose to ignore. You refuse to engage with any of the reasoned posts that others make, and are entirely dismissive of contemporary records (except those that suit your argument).
I keep hoping that the sun will come up and turn Bert Huggins to stone so at least we can get on with reasoned discussions....alas, we remain in utter darkness.
Sometimes it leads to extra digging.