Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

[FLYBOYJ]

I also like the way he picks which parts of the manuals (or which sentences ) he is going to use and which he is going to ignore.

But remember - He's not a pilot but have read the pilot manuals.

 

[tyrodtom]

A lot of humor in this thread.
I think I got my biggest laugh when P-39 expert ask for the definition of a troll.

 

[GrauGeist]

A lot of humor in this thread.
I think I got my biggest laugh when P-39 expert ask for the definition of a troll.

I *almost* said "have a look in the mirror", but held back.

Well...now it's out there, isn't it?

 

[33k in the air]

If only it had been accepted at the time, the war surely would have been shortened.

"P-39, Cadillac of the skies!" is what Jim should have been yelling in Empire of the Sun.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I do like the way the P-39 "escorts" clear the airfield fence, get the gear up, switch to the drop tank and head for Germany.

at some point in 1943 the P-47 groups changed number of aircraft per squadron to 25 aircraft. Or 75 planes for a 3 squadron group. even if not all planes are flying let's call it 50 planes operational on a given day. At 15 seconds between planes that is 12.5 minutes, at 20 seconds between planes that 16.7 minutes.

Using the "experts" flight plan the lead plane/s are at about 15,000ft and 50 miles from the airfield when the last plane/s take off.
This is actually brilliant planning as we don't have to worry about the fuel used in formation flying. There is NO formation. Just a bunch of planes in ones (mostly) and twos (occasionally) strung out over 50 miles winging their way into enemy airspace.

I also like the way he picks which parts of the manuals (or which sentences ) he is going to use and which he is going to ignore.

Post of the day.

 

[GregP]

Sorry I missed the 120-gal models, but the manuals (early models of each letter) I have do not state 120 or 110 gallons. Since I'm not a great P-39 fan, I only have about five or six P-39 manuals, and depended upon them for data.

Mea culpa!

OK, use 110 - 120 gal internal. Gets you another half hour of running or so. Add 15 minutes in each direction.

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, for God sakes, why all this fiddling around?
Stuff a 330 gallon drop tank on that Cobra - according to the authority, the more fuel it has, the faster and higher it can fly.
All that work and money spent on the A-12 Archangel when the obvious solution was right there the whole time...

 

[buffnut453]

He's not a pilot but have read the pilot manuals.

I can read a treatise on quantum physics but that doesn't mean I understand it.

This seems to be a "dog watching tennis" situation. The dog likes to watch the yellow ball going back and forth but he has no idea of why it's happening or the rules of the game.

 

[ThomasP]

I do not know if the following has been posted in this thread before, but for what it is worth:

Have fun.

 

[pbehn]

I do like the way the P-39 "escorts" clear the airfield fence, get the gear up, switch to the drop tank and head for Germany.

at some point in 1943 the P-47 groups changed number of aircraft per squadron to 25 aircraft. Or 75 planes for a 3 squadron group. even if not all planes are flying let's call it 50 planes operational on a given day. At 15 seconds between planes that is 12.5 minutes, at 20 seconds between planes that 16.7 minutes.

Why not paint them bright colours with bands, stripes and circles any bomber box wandering aimlessly in the North Sea could form up and act as top cover.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Yes, the P-38 was a twin meaning that two engines must be started (separately) and two sets of propeller and mag checks must be undertaken (separately).

What the barreling f**K?!?! The P-38 has TWO engines? Why didn't anybody tell me this earlier?

All these years you all knew this and didn't let me in on it... *Sniffle* and here I thought we were friends...

 

[Peter Gunn]

*SNIP*

Bill can compute his own crazy flight plan. I have computed numerous flight plans on here for the P-39 and the P-47 and the information comes straight from the manuals. *SNIP*

Yeaaah, see here's the thing, Bill can, probably off the top of his head, give you a rough estimate for a mission profile and be more accurate than someone reading a pilots manual and running figures for hours. If he actually devoted time to it, you could bet the house it'd be correct.

I've read pilots manuals too, the first time I did a mission profile for a Mustang it didn't come near what the AAF planners accomplished because they were, well, you know, dare I say "Experts"?

Once I started flying the scales fell from my eyes so to speak. Granted, I haven't touched an airplane since 1981 or so, so my knowledge like most of my sanity is out the window, but my opinion is you should listen to the people here that are actually in aviation.

BTW, I don't think Bill is capable of computing a "crazy" flight plan, unless it involves distilled brown liquid and burned cow.

 

[Shortround6]

I think your first point there is the crux of the matter. The Brits ordered the P-400 before any operational variant P-39 had flown. We have no idea what performance claims were made by Bell, although the chart provided earlier in this thread gives some indication that the pre-1941 performance estimates were ridiculously optimistic. Rather than the Brits deliberately besmirching the good name of Bell, it seems far more likely that Bell sold the Brits a bill of goods....and then failed to deliver on it.

The big failing in the British "conspiracy theory" is that the British didn't order the P-400 in the First place.
The French did and Britain took over the order when France fell. Britain also took over just about ALL French orders for defense goods when France fell.
Major revisions to the French specification in the summer of 1940 was pretty much to get the plane flyable to British standards, like change the direction of throttle operation, substitute non metric instruments, make sure British and American guns could be used and not French supplied guns, shelves/brackets for British radios and so on.
This was done BEFORE the Americans ordered any P-39Ds or changed the last of the P-39Cs to Ds. It kind of locks the British into a certain configuration.

The "expert" seems to think you can just change things at a whim. It may take dozens of drawings to made to change the heating system. You need drawings of even such things as a knob and control cable to open a door in a duct. Let alone drawings of the duct. The more changes you make the longer it takes to get your finished airplanes.

There were two more specification revisions, one several months before Lend lease was passed and one several months after.

Bell had several opportunities to revise the performance specifications, they didn't.

Were the British even offered the new heating system?

Unless there are documents showing the British turned down the new heating system and keeping the gas fired heaters then this portion of the debate should be put to rest.

Coincidence is not proof.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I do not know if the following has been posted in this thread before, but for what it is worth:

View attachment 633283
View attachment 633284

Have fun.

Never been posted but the same instructions are indicated on the Flight Operation Instruction Charts and I bolded "CHARTS" to indicate more than one. The instructions are quite clear but mentions nothing about fuel consumed during climbs, so I guess we have to omit that consideration! Thanks for posting!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Post of the day.

Comment of the year;

"I'm not a pilot but I have read the pilot manuals."

 

[SaparotRob]

Does anyone remember what this thread was originally about? What was being discussed about the P-39 that the thread was to answer?

 

[GrauGeist]

Does anyone remember what this thread was originally about? What was being discussed about the P-39 that the thread was to answer?

It was something about the 1949 Studebaker's goofy back window.

I think...

 

[SaparotRob]

I think you're right!

 

[buffnut453]

The big failing in the British "conspiracy theory" is that the British didn't order the P-400 in the First place.
The French did and Britain took over the order when France fell. Britain also took over just about ALL French orders for defense goods when France fell.
Major revisions to the French specification in the summer of 1940 was pretty much to get the plane flyable to British standards, like change the direction of throttle operation, substitute non metric instruments, make sure British and American guns could be used and not French supplied guns, shelves/brackets for British radios and so on.
This was done BEFORE the Americans ordered any P-39Ds or changed the last of the P-39Cs to Ds. It kind of locks the British into a certain configuration.

The "expert" seems to think you can just change things at a whim. It may take dozens of drawings to made to change the heating system. You need drawings of even such things as a knob and control cable to open a door in a duct. Let alone drawings of the duct. The more changes you make the longer it takes to get your finished airplanes.

There were two more specification revisions, one several months before Lend lease was passed and one several months after.

Bell had several opportunities to revise the performance specifications, they didn't.

Were the British even offered the new heating system?

Unless there are documents showing the British turned down the new heating system and keeping the gas fired heaters then this portion of the debate should be put to rest.

Coincidence is not proof.

Agree with all. What's even more infuriating is the continual statement that the British specified the gas heater. They'd have done no such thing. They probably would have specified that the cockpit should be heated but the specifics of how would be left to the aircraft manufacturer.

The whole theory that the Brits deliberately added a gas heater to help increase the P-400's weight so they could get out of the contract is so ridiculous. Anyone who's worked in procurement, or any person with a ha'pen'orth of common sense who looks at the timeline of actual events, would recognize that it's nonsense...and yet here we are with the same conspiracy theory still being trotted out.

 

[pbehn]

The big failing in the British "conspiracy theory" is that the British didn't order the P-400 in the First place.
The French did and Britain took over the order when France fell. Britain also took over just about ALL French orders for defense goods when France fell.
Major revisions to the French specification in the summer of 1940 was pretty much to get the plane flyable to British standards, like change the direction of throttle operation, substitute non metric instruments, make sure British and American guns could be used and not French supplied guns, shelves/brackets for British radios and so on.
This was done BEFORE the Americans ordered any P-39Ds or changed the last of the P-39Cs to Ds. It kind of locks the British into a certain configuration.

The "expert" seems to think you can just change things at a whim. It may take dozens of drawings to made to change the heating system. You need drawings of even such things as a knob and control cable to open a door in a duct. Let alone drawings of the duct. The more changes you make the longer it takes to get your finished airplanes.

There were two more specification revisions, one several months before Lend lease was passed and one several months after.

Bell had several opportunities to revise the performance specifications, they didn't.

Were the British even offered the new heating system?

Unless there are documents showing the British turned down the new heating system and keeping the gas fired heaters then this portion of the debate should be put to rest.

Coincidence is not proof.

I have asked for this several times before, there is a massive difference between specifying that the cabin and guns should be heated, and accepting a manufacturers proposal to do the same, to "saying use this heater in your plane". The Hurricane and Spitfire used ducted air systems, why would the British reject one?