Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained) (1 Viewer)

[Clayton Magnet]

Years ago, we had a couple Hawker Hunters visit the hanger, which were being used as adversarial trainers for the RCAF. The aircraft were ex-Swiss airforce, and being operated by a Quebec based company (now defunct). So the manuals were originally in English, translated to Swiss, then changed to French. They were an absolute mess

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Years ago, we had a couple Hawker Hunters visit the hanger, which were being used as adversarial trainers for the RCAF. The aircraft were ex-Swiss airforce, and now being operated by a Quebec based company (now defect). So the manuals were originally in English, translated to Swiss, then changed to French. They were an absolute mess

Swiss = French, German or Italian from what I understand

 

[Marcel]

But I am a bit tired of the way this 'discussion' is going on and on and on. It's a bit like the herd against the individual. One has to admire the stubborness of mr. Expert. If anyone would reacted to me the way you guys do to him, I would have quit long ago. I must admit he's asking a bit for it by relentlesly returning to this topic with his own ideas while he knows he will not convert anyone to his point of view and will only get flak for doing so. One is wondering what the purpose of that is, seems to me like a waste of time. I'm also wondering why you guys keep on reacting. Don't you get tired of that? You know that ignoring a thread is well doable? I stay at my optinion, that here on the forum, there is some tendensy to masochism. Everybody in this thread seems keen to be annoyed.

 

[pbehn]

Years ago, we had a couple Hawker Hunters visit the hanger, which were being used as adversarial trainers for the RCAF. The aircraft were ex-Swiss airforce, and being operated by a Quebec based company (now defunct). So the manuals were originally in English, translated to Swiss, then changed to French. They were an absolute mess

When I worked on a pipeline in Russia, the specification was the American API 5L. The Russians obviously translated it to Russian for their use. When BP became involved and had UK inspectors on site, instead of giving us the APL 5L spec. they gave us an incomprehensible translation of the Russian spec. back to English. Meetings with the Russian management were "fun".

 

[33k in the air]

If I could I would give you bacon as well!

As long as it's not Bell brand bacon. I hear it doesn't live up to its reputation.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

But I am a bit tired of the way this 'discussion' is going on and on and on. It's a bit like the herd against the individual. One has to admire the stubborness of mr. Expert. If anyone would reacted to me the way you guys do to him, I would have quit long ago. I must admit he's asking a bit for it by relentlesly returning to this topic with his own ideas while he knows he will not convert anyone to his point of view and will only get flak for doing so. One is wondering what the purpose of that is, seems to me like a waste of time. I'm also wondering why you guys keep on reacting. Don't you get tired of that? You know that ignoring a thread is well doable? I stay at my optinion, that here on the forum, there is some tendensy to masochism. Everybody in this thread seems keen to be annoyed.

I visit this thread because I learn more about the airplane and flight in general, both from P-39 Expert 's posts, and the replies those posts generate.

If this thread is a tennis-match of back-and-forth, I'm a spectator, simply enjoying the match.

 

[GrauGeist]

But I am a bit tired of the way this 'discussion' is going on and on and on. It's a bit like the herd against the individual. One has to admire the stubborness of mr. Expert. If anyone would reacted to me the way you guys do to him, I would have quit long ago. I must admit he's asking a bit for it by relentlesly returning to this topic with his own ideas while he knows he will not convert anyone to his point of view and will only get flak for doing so. One is wondering what the purpose of that is, seems to me like a waste of time. I'm also wondering why you guys keep on reacting. Don't you get tired of that? You know that ignoring a thread is well doable? I stay at my optinion, that here on the forum, there is some tendensy to masochism. Everybody in this thread seems keen to be annoyed.

On the otherhand, this forum strives for accuracy and when an individual tries to propagate blatant falsehoods, the outcome is inevitable.

There's been plenty of exchanges similar to this over the years, although they didn't seem to last as long because the preponderance of fact outweighed the falsehoods.

The one consolation of this protracted thread, is that a newcomer will come away with a substantial amount of information about the P-39 (and variants) and will most certainly be able to spot misinformation if/when posted elsewhere on the web.

 

[Marcel]

GrauGeist true, but only if they have the stammina to plough through all these posts. I don't see any purpose anymore, but don't worry, I'm not going to close the thread.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

But I am a bit tired of the way this 'discussion' is going on and on and on. It's a bit like the herd against the individual. One has to admire the stubborness of mr. Expert. If anyone would reacted to me the way you guys do to him, I would have quit long ago. I must admit he's asking a bit for it by relentlesly returning to this topic with his own ideas while he knows he will not convert anyone to his point of view and will only get flak for doing so. One is wondering what the purpose of that is, seems to me like a waste of time. I'm also wondering why you guys keep on reacting. Don't you get tired of that? You know that ignoring a thread is well doable? I stay at my optinion, that here on the forum, there is some tendensy to masochism. Everybody in this thread seems keen to be annoyed.

Marcel, I agree for the most part but what bothers me is when some of us (to include myself) try to educate this individual and we are met with a narcissistic response, most disturbing when several of us have worked in this industry for many years and have hands on knowledge of some of these topics. It isn't a matter of masochism, it's a matter of an individual putting out blatantly wrong information

 

[buffnut453]

GrauGeist true, but only if they have the stammina to plough through all these posts. I don't see any purpose anymore, but don't worry, I'm not going to close the thread.

If you did, it'd be a fair bet that another "P-39 is a forgotten war-winner" thread would open very shortly thereafter....or we'd end up with another series of P-39 comments spamming other threads.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

this forum strives for accuracy and when an individual tries to propagate blatant falsehoods, the outcome is inevitable.

Amen

 

[Marcel]

Marcel, I agree for the most part but what bothers me is when some of us (to include myself) try to educate this individual and we are met with a narcissistic response, most disturbing when several of us have worked in this industry for many years and have hands on knowledge of some of these topics. It isn't a matter of masochism, it's a matter of an individual putting out blatantly wrong information

Yeah agree, but if you're not getting through, at what point is it enough? Or will everybody keep running circles forever? BTW, very glad you are in this thread, because I could not stand moderating this.

 

[Marcel]

If you did, it'd be a fair bet that another "P-39 is a forgotten war-winner" thread would open very shortly thereafter....or we'd end up with another series of P-39 comments spamming other threads.

Very true.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

My take from this thread so far, which I do find quite enjoyable, can be summed up as "...IF ONLY Bell had built the aircraft with these modifications, and used this engine instead, and ignored British meddling, and perhaps most importantly, delivered this masterpiece a year or two earlier, it would have been a war-winner..." All the while taking liberties with the flight manual numbers, to stretch out the perceived performance.
If nothing else, its interesting from a "what-if" scenario

 

[Marcel]

My take from this thread so far, which I do find quite enjoyable, can be summed up as "...IF ONLY Bell had built the aircraft with these modifications, and used this engine instead, and ignored British meddling, and perhaps most importantly, delivered this masterpiece a year or two earlier, it would have been a war-winner..." All the while taking liberties with the flight manual numbers, to stretch out the perceived performance.
If nothing else, its interesting from a "what-if" scenario

Then we should move it to the special 'what if' section. Hmmm, that's an idea....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yeah agree, but if you're not getting through, at what point is it enough? Or will everybody keep running circles forever?

Thus the reason for this thread.

Personally I have stepped back several times and let the banter fly but after a while jumped into the fray when I see incredibly wrong and inaccurate things said. Again as GrauGeist put it "this forum strives for accuracy and when an individual tries to propagate blatant falsehoods, the outcome is inevitable." I think we have strived to ensure that honest and accurate information has been discussed here and challenge those who do otherwise, for what ever reason

 

[Marcel]

Okay, fair enough. I do hope that this all can be done with respect on both sides, though.

 

[Shortround6]

I am not sure why all the fuss about the heater.

A similar device was used in thousands if not tens of thousands of Beechcraft, Cessna, Piper and other private/small business/air taxi aircraft.

A 20,000BTU unit for a Cessna 310 went 20.5 lbs. It was made by a subsidiary of the original company that made the heaters for the P-400s and all.

If 20-30lbs was make or break for the P-39 then It had other problems.

Some of our members who are pilots or worked on aircraft may be familiar with this type of heater.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am not sure why all the fuss about the heater.

A similar device was used in thousands if not tens of thousands of Beechcraft, Cessna, Piper and other private/small business/air taxi aircraft.

A 20,000BTU unit for a Cessna 310 went 20.5 lbs. It was made by a subsidiary of the original company that made the heaters for the P-400s and all.

If 20-30lbs was make or break for the P-39 then It had other problems.

Some of our members who are pilots or worked on aircraft may be familiar with this type of heater.

 

[SaparotRob]

Marcel, I agree for the most part but what bothers me is when some of us (to include myself) try to educate this individual...

You guys have educated a bunch of individuals, though. The more an error has tried to have been explained, the better my understanding of why its wrong becomes. I was the slow kid in class.