SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Yet another epiphany. I now have a vague idea of what NOT to do when considering an aircraft design.
Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)
- Thread starter greybeard
- Start date
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Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 868
- Feb 16, 2013
Hate those Janitrols!
Roger that! Concur. Nearly froze to death when one crapped out 10,000 feet over northern Maine one winters night with an OAT < -20° F. Why the Be99 relied on a Janitrol when all that bleed air was available is beyond me.
I agree that 20Lbs of weight isnt anything to make a fuss over, the heater certainly was though. Most fighters had the engine in front of the pilot, so a lot of heat came backwards from the engine and also many hot pipes for gun heaters, water and oil radiators went around the cockpit. How the guns and pilot were kept hot enough to work is a completely legitimate question to be asked. ( I know you know, it seems a mystery to others).
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No Airplane Flight Manual is meant to be a "Piloting for Dummies" course on learning to fly. It assumes a level of airmanship appropriate to the airplane in question, something the untrained "armchair pilot" is woefully unprepared for. What said imaginary aviator lacks is the context to functionally interpret the information presented. He doesn't know how much he doesn't know and thinks he knows all he needs to know.
In my flight instructing days I encountered the occasional such individual, and after a couple of attempts to salvage their dreams, I would send them packing. People like that are a danger to everyone who shares an airplane or even shares a sky with them.
The thing that gets me is that our X-spurt friend calculates everything to the last second of time and the last drop of fuel in a desperate attempt to make a marginal plane into a viable performer, no provision for the fudge factors that abound in an operation as complex as an escorted bombing raid. What if the bombers are 20 minutes late to the rendezvous? What if the Abbeville boys force you to drop tanks as you go "feet dry" on the French coast? What if all southern England is "socked in" on your return? Gotta have plan bravo, and plan charlie, and plan delta, and an airplane that has the capacity to handle those contingencies. Which is NOT the P39.
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Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 40,256
- Mar 26, 2007
Does loosing the nose armour shift Cog?
buffnut453
Captain
Stop that! Stop that!!! We'll have none o' that here!!!!
"Folk said I was daft to remove the nose armour from my P-39...but I did it anyway."
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 40,256
- Mar 26, 2007
I agree, i rather sing. But there you have it. Tell me this What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen P-39 ? The European one. Not the African one.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
100% Wes!
Maybe that's why I have gotten irritated a few times over this. As a young kid I would love to get my hands on a flight manual and just drool all over it in hopes of becoming an expert on said airplane. There were many terms and references in these manuals that I glossed over and it wasn't until years later when I first took ground school how some of this data came together in my brain. I'm sure I would have held the same "I'm not a pilot but read the manual" attitude had I had similar discussions with my peers back then.
V speeds, density altitude, basic weight and balance, engine performance charts are some things most people will not firmly grasp by reading flight manuals for high performance aircraft, be that from WW2 or today without some kind of basic education on said subject matter. It's been a few years since I've worked with primary students and even then I have found myself making errors in using performance charts, sometimes my students would point out my errors which I humbly accepted as a learning experience.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
This thread might have more pages than the -39 had kills.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 40,256
- Mar 26, 2007
The European one had some. Not the African one. That shifted CoG to much after the coconots were installed.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
In the USAAF -
I've been trying to find out what the kill/ loss ratio the VVS had against the Luftwaffe with the P-39.
As a teenager I was the ultimate nerdy, irritating, PITA and drove those truly in the know totally bonkers with my Martin Caidin level of informational certainty. I see a fellow traveler in our X-spurt friend here. It wasn't til I actually started flying and those crusty old Chief Petty Officers who instructed in the flying club took me down a peg, that I began to see the light.
From what I gathered from reading "stuff" that was the start of things with operational combat pilots. Most pilots could state how much fuel they had when they landed because that was part of operations, to constantly update how the theory compared to the practice.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I had actually considered putting, into that post of mine you quoted, Cheney's reminder that "there's what we know, there's what we know we don't know, and there's what we do not know we don't know." It ties back to the Eastwood "a man's got to know his limitations" clip I posted earlier.
If you haven't been on stage -- in a cockpit, concert-stage, or whatever -- critique is easy. But when you're the one who has to crash and burn, a healthy dollop of humility is useful.
It's a pity
P-39 Expert
doesn't keep that in mind. Mile in your moccasins, and all that.Thankfully, f**king up a gig doesn't give me a burning hole in the ground, with my dumb ass sitting in the middle of it. Folks should keep that in mind when they wish to lecture others.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
If you spelled it "coconuts", you'd lose about three pounds of ballast and perhaps it could fly!
That over-top "O" messes with CoG, bro.
I hope our friend is a good swimmer. I get the feeling he may need that skill if he were to go flying in his P39.
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
It's a mystery to me. I've read that the P-39 was the most successful American fighter (flown by any nation) of them all. I find that hard to believe, considering especially F6F had so many in 44-45. Another thing is that I don't really trust Soviet records myself, but who else do we ask, right?
Quite frankly, I'd trust LW records more than VVS from this era.
buffnut453
Captain
Surely the poor old Buffalo has to be up there in terms of success rates. Even including all operational users, it still attained a 26:1 kill:loss ratio....largely due to the Finns, of course (and I should note those are claims rather than indisputable kills).
