buffnut453
Captain
Where's my popcorn when I need it?
Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)
- Thread starter greybeard
- Start date
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Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
So here's something else I ran across, Luftwaffe pilots surrendering to the USAAF, first one is a pristine looking Fw-190 long nose, as it's towed away it looks like a P-51B or C in the background with a Malcolm Hood on it. The Stuka comes in with a Mustang escort as well. Cool stuff.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
The Stuka had flame dampener exhaust? A night dive bomber? Sounds dangerous.
fubar57
General
They were starting to be used at night with the D-3N variant, flame dampener exhaust included
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
As dive bombers???
You mean Convair didn't INVENT that idea for the B58 as they claimed? You've shattered my faith in the innovativeness of General Dynamics! Fie on them!
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You will find most post war designs trace back to the P-39, even the B58 if you look at it in a very very very low light.
...and you've just staggered back from the pub.
fubar57
General
Not so much dive bombing........."Confronted with a hostile air environment, by mid-1943 the Stuka was limited mostly to night operations. The Ju-87 D-5 had no particular optimizations for flying at night, with pilots coming in low and slow and dropping antipersonnel bombs on groups of incautious Allied troops. The Luftwaffe learned this trick from the Soviets, who had become fond of using little Po-2 biplanes on such harassment raids earlier in the war."
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
You, sir, have way too much time on your hands.
fubar57
General
7 day weekends help
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
November 1942 the P-39N deliveries begin to the USAAF. April 1943 the P-39N is supplied
to the French in North Africa. June 1943 the 18th FG becomes operational at Guadalcanal in
their P-39Ns.
It looks like the comparison is with the Fw 190A-4/-5/-6 and Bf 109 G-2 thru G-6 (early variants).
objections?
to the French in North Africa. June 1943 the 18th FG becomes operational at Guadalcanal in
their P-39Ns.
It looks like the comparison is with the Fw 190A-4/-5/-6 and Bf 109 G-2 thru G-6 (early variants).
objections?
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
No misconceptions, the P-39s did not have the range of the Allison powered Mustangs.
It did not have the high altitude performances of the Merlin powered Mustangs. No version
of the P-39, or P-63 for that matter, was particularly suited for the European Theater of Operation.
I do not believe that even the P-39N/Q should be considered as in the same class as the Bf 109G
and later Fw 190As, at least not at altitudes above 6,000m.
My purpose with this posting is to attempt to show why the Russians who's air war was mainly
below 5,500m., were able to hold their own against the best of the Luftwaffe with Bell's second
hand little fighter.
I saw you George
The P-39N information comes from aircraft 42-4400 testing in report dated 24 Nov. 1942.
The Bf 109G-2 information comes from the Russian tests. The Finnish tests produced
better climb rates but much lower speeds and I do not have a weight listing for the Finnish
Bf 109G-2. The FW 190A-5 information comes from the Augsburg test 19 June 1943.
Altitude / Speed
Meters / MPH: Bf 109G-2 / FW 190A-5 / P-39N
S.L........326 / 352 / 344
1,000...344 / 368 / 362
2,000...362 / 370 / 381
3,000...374 / 367 / 398
4,000...378 / 378 / 394
5,000...379 / 397 / 388
6,000...398 / 415 / 382
7,000...414 / 417 / 376
8,000...410 / 407 / 367
FTH: 414 @ 7,000 / 422.5 @ 6,375 / 398.5 @ 2,957
Altitude / Climb
Meters / FPM: Bf 109G-2 / FW 190A-5 / P-39N
S.L........3740 / 3265 / 3980
1,000...3975 / 3345 / 4145
2,000...4134 / 2855 / 4220
3,000...3720 / 2500 / 3940
4,000...3445 / 2480 / 3460
5,000...3208 / 2460 / 3060
6,000...3130 / 2155 / 2685
7,000...2598 / 1692 / 2230
8,000...2086 / 1250 / 1745
Time to 3,000m: 2.6 / 3.1 / 2.38 minutes.
Combat Ceiling (1,000 fpm): 10,080 / 8,595 / 9,700 meters.
Power Loading (lbs./hp.): 4.581 / 4,911 / 5..122
Wing Loading (lbs./sq. ft.): 38.46 / 42.54 / 34.15
Armament: Bf 109G-2: 1 x 20mm/150 rd.+ 2 x 7.9mm/500 rpg
FW 190A-5: 2 x 20mm/250 rpg + 2 x 20mm/60 rpg + 2 x 7.9mm/850 rpg
P-39N: 1 x 37mm/30 rd + 2 x 0.5cal/200 rpg + 4 x 0.3cal/300 rpg
Note: Russian P-39N and Qs mostly had 1 x 37mm/30 rds + 2 x 12.7mm/200 rpg
this improved climb and speed. The fact that their pilots push the engine just
slightly helped a bit also.![:-\"](/forum/images/smilies/eusa_whistle.gif "Whistle :-\\"")
Internal fuel range: 340 mls / 497 mls / 360 mls w-87 gal. and 525 mls w-120 gallons.
As I said, the Airacobra was a slightly cheaper cut. But it was not the complete
lemon that a lot of authors and WW2 aircraft enthusiast believe it to be.
, Jeff
It did not have the high altitude performances of the Merlin powered Mustangs. No version
of the P-39, or P-63 for that matter, was particularly suited for the European Theater of Operation.
I do not believe that even the P-39N/Q should be considered as in the same class as the Bf 109G
and later Fw 190As, at least not at altitudes above 6,000m.
My purpose with this posting is to attempt to show why the Russians who's air war was mainly
below 5,500m., were able to hold their own against the best of the Luftwaffe with Bell's second
hand little fighter.
I saw you George
The P-39N information comes from aircraft 42-4400 testing in report dated 24 Nov. 1942.
The Bf 109G-2 information comes from the Russian tests. The Finnish tests produced
better climb rates but much lower speeds and I do not have a weight listing for the Finnish
Bf 109G-2. The FW 190A-5 information comes from the Augsburg test 19 June 1943.
Altitude / Speed
Meters / MPH: Bf 109G-2 / FW 190A-5 / P-39N
S.L........326 / 352 / 344
1,000...344 / 368 / 362
2,000...362 / 370 / 381
3,000...374 / 367 / 398
4,000...378 / 378 / 394
5,000...379 / 397 / 388
6,000...398 / 415 / 382
7,000...414 / 417 / 376
8,000...410 / 407 / 367
FTH: 414 @ 7,000 / 422.5 @ 6,375 / 398.5 @ 2,957
Altitude / Climb
Meters / FPM: Bf 109G-2 / FW 190A-5 / P-39N
S.L........3740 / 3265 / 3980
1,000...3975 / 3345 / 4145
2,000...4134 / 2855 / 4220
3,000...3720 / 2500 / 3940
4,000...3445 / 2480 / 3460
5,000...3208 / 2460 / 3060
6,000...3130 / 2155 / 2685
7,000...2598 / 1692 / 2230
8,000...2086 / 1250 / 1745
Time to 3,000m: 2.6 / 3.1 / 2.38 minutes.
Combat Ceiling (1,000 fpm): 10,080 / 8,595 / 9,700 meters.
Power Loading (lbs./hp.): 4.581 / 4,911 / 5..122
Wing Loading (lbs./sq. ft.): 38.46 / 42.54 / 34.15
Armament: Bf 109G-2: 1 x 20mm/150 rd.+ 2 x 7.9mm/500 rpg
FW 190A-5: 2 x 20mm/250 rpg + 2 x 20mm/60 rpg + 2 x 7.9mm/850 rpg
P-39N: 1 x 37mm/30 rd + 2 x 0.5cal/200 rpg + 4 x 0.3cal/300 rpg
Note: Russian P-39N and Qs mostly had 1 x 37mm/30 rds + 2 x 12.7mm/200 rpg
this improved climb and speed. The fact that their pilots push the engine just
slightly helped a bit also.
Internal fuel range: 340 mls / 497 mls / 360 mls w-87 gal. and 525 mls w-120 gallons.
As I said, the Airacobra was a slightly cheaper cut. But it was not the complete
lemon that a lot of authors and WW2 aircraft enthusiast believe it to be.
, Jeff
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Ask a question, get an answer...typically, that's how it works.You, sir, have way too much time on your hands.
The Ju87D (and some modified earlier variants) were used for night attack against Allied positions (both eastern and western fronts).
I'm kind of surprised that some people are unaware of this common bit of knowledge.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
No misconceptions, the P-39s did not have the range of the Allison powered Mustangs.
It did not have the high altitude performances of the Merlin powered Mustangs. No version
of the P-39, or P-63 for that matter, was particularly suited for the European Theater of Operation.
I do not believe that even the P-39N/Q should be considered as in the same class as the Bf 109G
and later Fw 190As, at least not at altitudes above 6,000m.
My purpose with this posting is to attempt to show why the Russians who's air war was mainly
below 5,500m., were able to hold their own against the best of the Luftwaffe with Bell's second
hand little fighter.
View attachment 535199
I saw you George
The P-39N information comes from aircraft 42-4400 testing in report dated 24 Nov. 1942.
The Bf 109G-2 information comes from the Russian tests. The Finnish tests produced
better climb rates but much lower speeds and I do not have a weight listing for the Finnish
Bf 109G-2. The FW 190A-5 information comes from the Augsburg test 19 June 1943.
Altitude / Speed
Meters / MPH: Bf 109G-2 / FW 190A-5 / P-39N
S.L........326 / 352 / 344
1,000...344 / 368 / 362
2,000...362 / 370 / 381
3,000...374 / 367 / 398
4,000...378 / 378 / 394
5,000...379 / 397 / 388
6,000...398 / 415 / 382
7,000...414 / 417 / 376
8,000...410 / 407 / 367
FTH: 414 @ 7,000 / 422.5 @ 6,375 / 398.5 @ 2,957
Altitude / Climb
Meters / FPM: Bf 109G-2 / FW 190A-5 / P-39N
S.L........3740 / 3265 / 3980
1,000...3975 / 3345 / 4145
2,000...4134 / 2855 / 4220
3,000...3720 / 2500 / 3940
4,000...3445 / 2480 / 3460
5,000...3208 / 2460 / 3060
6,000...3130 / 2155 / 2685
7,000...2598 / 1692 / 2230
8,000...2086 / 1250 / 1745
Time to 3,000m: 2.6 / 3.1 / 2.38 minutes.
Combat Ceiling (1,000 fpm): 10,080 / 8,595 / 9,700 meters.
Power Loading (lbs./hp.): 4.581 / 4,911 / 5..122
Wing Loading (lbs./sq. ft.): 38.46 / 42.54 / 34.15
Armament: Bf 109G-2: 1 x 20mm/150 rd.+ 2 x 7.9mm/500 rpg
FW 190A-5: 2 x 20mm/250 rpg + 2 x 20mm/60 rpg + 2 x 7.9mm/850 rpg
P-39N: 1 x 37mm/30 rd + 2 x 0.5cal/200 rpg + 4 x 0.3cal/300 rpg
Note: Russian P-39N and Qs mostly had 1 x 37mm/30 rds + 2 x 12.7mm/200 rpg
this improved climb and speed. The fact that their pilots push the engine just
slightly helped a bit also.
Internal fuel range: 340 mls / 497 mls / 360 mls w-87 gal. and 525 mls w-120 gallons.
As I said, the Airacobra was a slightly cheaper cut. But it was not the complete
lemon that a lot of authors and WW2 aircraft enthusiast believe it to be.
Here's what I got. The Me109G is the base G model at 6724# with 20mm and 2x.30cal MGs synchronized and non retracting tailwheel. Any increase in weight (30mm cannon or 13mm MGs, underwing weapons) and speed/climb fall off. As you can see the P-39N is a good bit faster up to 20000'. Then the Me109G ends up about 25kph (15mph) faster at 25000'. The bumps for the 13mm MGs would reduce the speed by 6mph so now the 109G is only about 9mph faster at 25000'.
Regarding climb, the P-39N is much faster below 20000' and about the same up to 25000'. And better range/endurance than the 109G. And more maneuverable.
The FW190A6 is slower than the P-39N up to 20000' but still about the same as the A6 combat speed at 26000'. At that altitude the N is about 40kph (25mph) slower than their WEP setting good for 1 minute.
In climb the P-39N outclimbs the FW190A substantially at all altitudes. And better range/endurance than the FW190A6. And more maneuverable.
Attachments
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