Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

[Shortround6]

They ordered them in wierd configurations (no turbochargers, no handed propellers) and refused to pay for them when production began after the BoB was over. They no longer needed them.

again with the accusations?

Show some real proof.

As shown above the bulk of the order was for handed propellers and turbochargers.

the French and British ordered the early planes without turbos not because they were trying to get out of the contracts but because the US Gov wasn't allowing the turbos to be exported.

When they ordered the planes the Merlin III was standard British fighter engine. When delivery time started the Merlin 45 and Merlin XX were the standard British fighter engines.
Delivery of the Lighting II wouldn't have been until 1942.

 

[pbehn]

When they ordered the planes the Merlin III was standard British fighter engine. When delivery time started the Merlin 45 and Merlin XX were the standard British fighter engines.
Delivery of the Lighting II wouldn't have been until 1942.

Deliveries to UK of P-38s after Dec 1941 would total zero, even if they had all been paid for in advance, with the full agreement of the British, the US needed them most of all.

 

[wuzak]

Deliveries to UK of P-38s after Dec 1941 would total zero, even if they had all been paid for in advance, with the full agreement of the British, the US needed them most of all.

I believe it was 4 - 3 Lightning Is and 1 Lightning II.

The Lightning I order was transferred to the USAAF when they were tested by the British. The instruction was to send no more.

The Lighting II order was also taken over by the USAAF.

 

[wuzak]

Would the P-39 have been better ditching the 37mm and having 4 0.50" HMGs in the nose firing through the propeller arc?

Or 5, the above plus one firing through the hub?

 

[pbehn]

I believe it was 4 - 3 Lightning Is and 1 Lightning II.

The Lightning I order was transferred to the USAAF when they were tested by the British. The instruction was to send no more.

The Lighting II order was also taken over by the USAAF.

It is absolutely in the US interest to supply at least one P-38 (or any other type) to the British, so it will be tested in the same environment as other British and captured fighters and results compared. The information and input of other eyes and ideas is worth much more than the price of one plane.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Would the P-39 have been better ditching the 37mm and having 4 0.50" HMGs in the nose firing through the propeller arc?

Or 5, the above plus one firing through the hub?

My vote goes to a 20mm firing through the propeller hub and the two synchronized .50s. Same as the P-400 and P-39D-1. Until the K model of July 1942 and after which had the better gun bay heating system, then the 37mm was reliable enough. After that, either the 37mm or 20mm would have worked just fine.

 

[P-39 Expert]

again with the accusations?

Show some real proof.

As shown above the bulk of the order was for handed propellers and turbochargers.

the French and British ordered the early planes without turbos not because they were trying to get out of the contracts but because the US Gov wasn't allowing the turbos to be exported.

When they ordered the planes the Merlin III was standard British fighter engine. When delivery time started the Merlin 45 and Merlin XX were the standard British fighter engines.
Delivery of the Lighting II wouldn't have been until 1942.

Pretty much impossible to prove intent. You accuse Bell of being a bunch of lying criminals and you can't prove that either.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Oh yeah? What about Brewster, Curtiss and Glenn Martin? Can you say Truman Commission?

 

[SaparotRob]

I can say it but I'll need to practice first.

 

[pbehn]

Pretty much impossible to prove intent. You accuse Bell of being a bunch of lying criminals and you can't prove that either.

It is routine to accuse the British of not taking the P-39 and P-38 because they didnt want to pay and finding spurious faults with them, at a time that hundreds of thousands of tons of shipping was being lost, a few planes was absolutely nothing but the point still gets made, doesnt it?

 

[SaparotRob]

Wait a minute. Wasn't there something posted earlier about "dummy" (not really) orders just to keep Pre war American production lines open?

 

[P-39 Expert]

I believe it was 4 - 3 Lightning Is and 1 Lightning II.

The Lightning I order was transferred to the USAAF when they were tested by the British. The instruction was to send no more.

The Lighting II order was also taken over by the USAAF.

The production table in The Lockheed P-38 Lightning by Warren Bodie shows 3+19 model 322-I, then 122 model 322-II to training command. The rest of the order completed at P-38Fs.

 

[pbehn]

Wait a minute. Wasn't there something posted earlier about "dummy" (not really) orders just to keep Pre war American production lines open?

Yes, and such things did happen. still do, especially in neutral countries that have elections and big economies. There are many other reasons, I am sure there is some sort of reason for Greece having ordered 800+ Leopard I and II tanks, I cant think of a military one though.

 

[SaparotRob]

I thought it may have had something to do with aircraft ultimately being rejected. Ordered but not needed.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The production table in The Lockheed P-38 Lightning by Warren Bodie shows 3+19 model 322-I, then 122 model 322-II to training command. The rest of the order completed at P-38Fs.

I no longer have this book, what was produced before these numbers and what was the production date?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Pretty much impossible to prove intent. You accuse Bell of being a bunch of lying criminals and you can't prove that either.

Not so much criminals, but maybe liars or "stretchers of the truth," but then again they weren't as bad as others.

 

[pbehn]

I thought it may have had something to do with aircraft ultimately being rejected. Ordered but not needed.

If you change "needed" and "not needed" to "have something better" and "dont have anything better" things look much different. The Gloster Gladiator was used in Belgium, UK BoB and Malta because for various reasons the British didnt have anything better at the time, mainly to do with available runways and location. By 1941 the USA decided where the stuff they made would be sent on basis of need. The huge length of the Russian front meant that a use could be found for almost anything, the short length of the front in UK and its stretch of water meant that only the best could survive, even the Mustang MkI wasnt considered for use as a "fighter" in terms of defence or escort.

 

[Shortround6]

Pretty much impossible to prove intent. You accuse Bell of being a bunch of lying criminals and you can't prove that either

Well, they advertised and sold a plane that was supposed to do 400mph.
They flat out lied about the prototype ever doing 390-400mph.
They spent hundreds of hours modifying one example for an acceptance test (using tricks that would never be used on production aircraft) just to meet the minimum qualify speed Several percent slower than the nominal contract speed.
They later admitted that they had lied and and had based the performance number estimates off an unpainted, polished aircraft with no guns and little, if any, operational equipment that was a 1/2 ton lighter empty than the production aircraft.

In fact the Bell executives, according to one account, admitted they used the figures from the XP-39 which was one ton lighter than even the P-39C which had NO armor, or self sealing tanks or IFF. and the first P-39C flew in Jan 1941. It was tested at a max speed of 379mph at a weight of 6689 lbs. see.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-39/P-39C_40-2988.pdf

When tested at Boscombe Down A.H. 701 managed 355mph at 13,000ft.

Perhaps the men at Bell weren't a bunch of lying criminals, perhaps they were just dishonest and incompetent. Or you pick a description that fits.

You have yet to list the unnecessary equipment the British specified in order to "break" the contract.
the 2nd Aircobra I (P-400) flew at the April 1941. The British had been fitting armor, self sealing tanks (of a limited sort) and IFF to their fighters for over 10 months.

And now you claim the British specified a version of the P-38 with modifications to ruin it's performance to to point they could get out of the contract, as part of your proof you point to the lack of turbo chargers, but as been pointed out to you, at the time of the initial contract the British were not allowed to buy the turbo chargers. How was that the fault of the British?

It is arguments like this that ruin your credibility and make people a lot less likely to listen to your other arguments.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Well, they advertised and sold a plane that was supposed to do 400mph.
They flat out lied about the prototype ever doing 390-400mph.
They spent hundreds of hours modifying one example for an acceptance test (using tricks that would never be used on production aircraft) just to meet the minimum qualify speed Several percent slower than the nominal contract speed.
They later admitted that they had lied and and had based the performance number estimates off an unpainted, polished aircraft with no guns and little, if any, operational equipment that was a 1/2 ton lighter empty than the production aircraft.

In fact the Bell executives, according to one account, admitted they used the figures from the XP-39 which was one ton lighter than even the P-39C which had NO armor, or self sealing tanks or IFF. and the first P-39C flew in Jan 1941. It was tested at a max speed of 379mph at a weight of 6689 lbs. see.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-39/P-39C_40-2988.pdf

When tested at Boscombe Down A.H. 701 managed 355mph at 13,000ft.

Perhaps the men at Bell weren't a bunch of lying criminals, perhaps they were just dishonest and incompetent. Or you pick a description that fits.

You have yet to list the unnecessary equipment the British specified in order to "break" the contract.
the 2nd Aircobra I (P-400) flew at the April 1941. The British had been fitting armor, self sealing tanks (of a limited sort) and IFF to their fighters for over 10 months.

And now you claim the British specified a version of the P-38 with modifications to ruin it's performance to to point they could get out of the contract, as part of your proof you point to the lack of turbo chargers, but as been pointed out to you, at the time of the initial contract the British were not allowed to buy the turbo chargers. How was that the fault of the British?

It is arguments like this that ruin your credibility and make people a lot less likely to listen to your other arguments.

Bell believed they could get 400mph at the current weights when the engine would finally develop 1150HP at 15000' as was projected by Allison in late 1939. The weight went up drastically and the 1150HP at 15000' wasn't realized until fall of 1942 with the -85 engine. Their projections (and Allison's) were obviously off.

The British did specify a very heavy airplane at over 7600lbs, especially when their SpitfireV weighed in the neighborhood of 6600lbs. Four .30calMGs with 1000rounds per gun (almost 400lbs), nose armor and armor for the oxygen bottles etc, (about 140lbs), a fuel powered cabin heater (when heating/cooling of the cabin was actually already very good) among other items. British had to know that a plane half a ton heavier than a Spitfire had to have a performance penalty. And I have listed these items numerous times on this board.

 

[buffnut453]

Bell believed they could get 400mph at the current weights when the engine would finally develop 1150HP at 15000' as was projected by Allison in late 1939. The weight went up drastically and the 1150HP at 15000' wasn't realized until fall of 1942 with the -85 engine. Their projections (and Allison's) were obviously off.

The British did specify a very heavy airplane at over 7600lbs, especially when their SpitfireV weighed in the neighborhood of 6600lbs. Four .30calMGs with 1000rounds per gun (almost 400lbs), nose armor and armor for the oxygen bottles etc, (about 140lbs), a fuel powered cabin heater (when heating/cooling of the cabin was actually already very good) among other items. British had to know that a plane half a ton heavier than a Spitfire had to have a performance penalty. And I have listed these items numerous times on this board.

And you've been told just as many times that the additional weight added by the British was NOT useless. The requirements were levied because that's what the customer wanted. They WANTED the wing guns because they were not useless (as you keep saying). They WANTED protection for the oxygen tanks because experience showed that unprotected oxygen was a combat liability (and they levied the same requirement on the Brewster Buffalo).

Do you have evidence that the British mandated the nose armour because, from what I've seen, it was pretty much a standard fit on all P-39s?

You can blame the Brits all you like but the bottom line is that the P-39 when configured for actual combat operations wasn't a very good aircraft. Period.