CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Hans Ulrich Rudel, Tank Destroyer...
- Thread starter lesofprimus
- Start date
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Erich
the old Sage
Charles are you pointing to 1942 with the destruction of Il-2 with his Kanonvögel ? The 87G-1 with 3.7cm was not available till 1943. My full understanding is that the rear gunner claimed 1 Soviet a/c and that Rüdel actually shot down the rest of the Soviet a/c in a Fw 190F. there are a few discrepencies in his own work and works by others on this graound attack pilot, Rüdel flying a variety of Ju 87's, Fw 190's including the Dora 9
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
I was pointing to the IL-2 claim, the date just happen to be in the tail of the arrow, The Il-2 destroyed with the 3,7 cm BK flying the Ju-87 G is noted in his book "stuka pilot"
kiwimac
Staff Sergeant
Regardless of the man's politics. He was a fine pilot and apparently a fine human being as well. Simply fighting for your country to the best of your ability does not necessarily make you a follower of those in power.
Kiwimac
Kiwimac
Just to let everyone know, Han Ulrich Rudel was a fine human being, unlike the prick and fanatical Nazi, Erich Hartmann. Apparently, the two were locked up in the same prison during American captivity and they hated each other. I heard this from a former Luftwaffe pilot.
Erich
the old Sage
did you now ? well lets here the former Luftwaffe pilots name that makes the claim through you shall we ??
E
E
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
I think that Rudel and Hartmann never share a imprisoment, Rudel handed over himself to the U.S Army , Hartmann do the same but was snatched from the american truck by a soviet armored column.
Oberst Rudel's Ju 87 G-2 Crashed at Kitzingen
Oberst Rudel's Ju 87 G-2 Crashed at Kitzingen
And did you know Hartmann personally to be able to say that. Not every German was a Nazi....
Second people that have met Hartmann as he flew in the United States after the war say the exact opposite of what you say.
I suggest that you dont make stupid comments like that unless you have actual facts.
Also another thing that I just noticed about your post.
Hartmann was never really in American Captivity. He surrendured to the US 90th Infantry Division along with his ground crew and the fellow pilots of HIS suadron and was handed over to the Russians. He was in Russian Captivity until until 1955.
Please get your facts straight again, do some research before you post rubbish.
...Jackson
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
To call "prick" an great ace like Hartmann would make goonboy get kicked inmediatly from several forums that I know. 
I considered doing it myself, buy then decided to wait for his childish response (that is deffinatly going to come) before I do so.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Who was the pilot, Gottfied Dulias?
I have met people from Lockheed and from the USAF who knew Hartman and they had the utmost respect for the man and he was far from a fanatical Nazi!
Flat out, you're either very naive, uneducated or just a plain imbicile.
Heinz
Captain
his user name says it all really.......
P1234567890
Airman
- 75
- Aug 18, 2007
Regarding kill score inflation, I am willing to concede that COUNTRIES always exaggerated their kill scores (e.g. the Battle of Britain), but does that mean that individual PILOTS did as well?
Didn't the German system of tallying kills require independent corroboration?
Didn't the German system of tallying kills require independent corroboration?
parsifal
Colonel
I have a question. Who was the second highest scoring "tank Ace"? How do you corroborate ground attack claims. How sure can we be of the alleged 700 kills (or thereabouts) attributed to Rudel. Are there similar records for the Soviets, Brits and Americans? I am having difficulty understanding how the claims can be so precise. Was Rudel used by the Nazis as a propaganda tool? Before you kill me for saying that, its a genuine question
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
I think the ground attack claims are most unreliable ones , bot on axis and on allied side.
Germans had sometimes an overclaim percentage up to 50%, Russians - even greater.
and the true effectivness of any Ju-87 or Il-2 pilot should be judged only by amount of combat sorties flown.
Soviet Bmr Aces of WW2
Germans had sometimes an overclaim percentage up to 50%, Russians - even greater.
and the true effectivness of any Ju-87 or Il-2 pilot should be judged only by amount of combat sorties flown.
Soviet Bmr Aces of WW2
parsifal
Colonel
I have no experience to rely on in this discussion, but the camera footage I have seen makes me seriously doubt the accuracy of many of the claims. i am trying to approach this question with an open mind, and would appreciate any opinions from people who think they might have a better understanding. Anecdotally, I know that in Normandy, very few actual tanks were destroyed by air attack, but a great number of support vehicles were. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Lehr lost maybe 1 or 2 tanks to air attack in July, and something like 100 other vehicles. it was the loss of the support vehicles that did the damage.
Anyway, anyone with better information, please come forward.
Anyway, anyone with better information, please come forward.
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
oh no, not this reward story again
Could you show these posters on the forum? Never heard about it.Vegafox is right - nobody in the RKKA knew Rudel, Hartmann or any of the leading aces of Germans. Radio intelligence knew some of their callsigns, but that was about it.
Then please show your proof that states otherwise.
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
Ok Adler, once again - I'm not the one who must prove anything simply because the other opinion isn't backed enough with the facts. Why?
You said in the other thread there're not only Toliver and Constable or Hartmann himself who stated that his (I mean ,Hartmann's) head was rewarded. But to my knowledge, all others who stated this used Toliver and Constable book as an only source. Just like Rudel stated in his book that there was reward on his head, but he hadn't backed his statement with any facts as well.
1) There wasn't any such order of Stalin or of any soviet commander
2)There is no mention of any kind of reward on any german pilot/tanker etc in any of RKKA veteran's memories
3) There's no known fact of rewarding of any axis person whatsoever.
4) the only reward Russian pilots became was the usual reward for destruction of enemy aircraft (100 rubles if my memory serves me correct)
5)As a Russian who is familiar with a history of the RKKA in the WW2 I just can't imagine something like that could ever happen.
Well you believe what you wish, once I see something otherwise then I might change my mind.
