Hard runways in WWII

BiffF15 · Jul 29, 2024

Thumpalumpacus said:
The BUFFs I serviced as a firefighter, doing standbys for MITOs, were lifting off not far past the midway-point of our 11,000' runway at Carswell. My truck was at the midpoint of the runways/taxiways there and they were lifting off not very far past me at all, perhaps 7,000' rollout all told?

I don't know what engines they had. 7th BW flew B-52H models when I was there. Smoky as hell, fo' sho. Peeling off left and right ASAP, too.

Not Carswell but Minot AFB, but you can see how much runway is underneath them at liftoff, these guys were bucking for altitude.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6VFeDJNNzw&t=4s

Thump,

I would think if they (B-52s) were airborne at the 7k they were not heavily loaded. Those runways were built for worst case max effort hot day take offs. That is probably what drove the original length.

While F-16s can take off in 5-6k it eats up even more on landing. I think their min runway length is in the 7-8k range when operating clean. The F15 min length was 1K less in the clean configuration and could be waived lower by the OG/CC. We both required cables at least one end of the field.

Cheers,
Biff

Thumpalumpacus · Jul 29, 2024

BiffF15 said:
Thump,

I would think if they (B-52s) were airborne at the 7k they were not heavily loaded. Those runways were built for worst case max effort hot day take offs. That is probably what drove the original length.

While F-16s can take off in 5-6k it eats up even more on landing. I think their min runway length is in the 7-8k range when operating clean. The F15 min length was 1K less in the clean configuration and could be waived lower by the OG/CC. We both required cables at least one end of the field.

Cheers,
Biff

They obvs don't have external stores -- neither did ours for our IG/ORI ops -- but I'm pretty sure ours had internal stores, since we'd done standbys on the uploads. I think they were inert.

They only launches carrying live weapons I recall was with the 301 TFW(R) which shared the base -- F-4s and later F-16s launching with missiles.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 29, 2024

This site has good information on Lutfwaffe airfields, with lots of information about infrastructure including runway types.

Just choose the country location of the airfield, and they are listed alphabetically.

Luftwaffe Airfields 1935-1945

Luftwaffe Airfields 1935-1945 by Henry L. deZeng IV

www.ww2.dk

MikeMeech · Jul 29, 2024

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
This site has good information on Lutfwaffe airfields, with lots of information about infrastructure including runway types.

Just choose the country location of the airfield, and they are listed alphabetically.

Luftwaffe Airfields 1935-1945

Luftwaffe Airfields 1935-1945 by Henry L. deZeng IV

www.ww2.dk

Hi
Reference WW2 German airfields, here is an early war image of Gutersloh Aerodrome from a 1940 British book 'Britain's Wonderful Fighting Forces' by Captain Ellison Hawks, RA. Written before the fall of France.

Mike

MikeMeech · Jul 29, 2024

Hi
Wartime images of wire netting type of reinforcement of landing grounds.
First from 1940 book mentioned in previous post, page 141:

And in later book 'Warfare Today', probably early 1944 (has images of invasion of Italy in), page 130, rolling out wire (possibly US Troops):

Mike

GregP · Jul 29, 2024

Thumpalumpacus said:
The BUFFs I serviced as a firefighter, doing standbys for MITOs, were lifting off not far past the midway-point of our 11,000' runway at Carswell. My truck was at the midpoint of the runways/taxiways there and they were lifting off not very far past me at all, perhaps 7,000' rollout all told?

I don't know what engines they had. 7th BW flew B-52H models when I was there. Smoky as hell, fo' sho. Peeling off left and right ASAP, too.

Not Carswell but Minot AFB, but you can see how much runway is underneath them at liftoff, these guys were bucking for altitude.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6VFeDJNNzw&t=4s

Sorry, I didn't make my self clear. Yes, they can lift off at maybe 7,000 feet, but they cannot OPERATE from a 7,000 foot runway ... perhaps not fully loaded with fuel and armament. They need to be able to accelerate to V1, have an issue, and then stop.

I'd say they could land in 7,000 feet and lift off in 7,000 feet, but cannot make it to V1 and stop in that distance. I was at Ellsworth for 3 years and we had two takeoff aborts in that time I was aware of. Neither one was far from the end of the 13,500 foot main runway.

Same way you can't operate an airliner from a runway that you can technically lift off from if everything is working correctly.

ThomasP · Jul 30, 2024

FWIW various TO rolls at Max TOGW, from various SACs

__________ Take-Off Roll at TOGW
B-52B_____7450 ft at 420,000 lbs
B-52D_____8250 ft at 450,000 lbs
B-52F_____7000 ft at 450,000 lbs
B-52G____ 8010 ft at 488,000 lbs
B-52H____ 7420 ft at 488,000 lbs

GregP · Jul 30, 2024

At Ellsworth in the 1970s, we flew D's and H's.

Not too sure how heavy they were when they launched; I worked on the Minuteman ICBM Missiles. I had friends who flew the B-52s, but we didn't talk about aircraft performance.

PStickney · Aug 3, 2024

BiffF15 said:
Thump,

I would think if they (B-52s) were airborne at the 7k they were not heavily loaded. Those runways were built for worst case max effort hot day take offs. That is probably what drove the original length.

While F-16s can take off in 5-6k it eats up even more on landing. I think their min runway length is in the 7-8k range when operating clean. The F15 min length was 1K less in the clean configuration and could be waived lower by the OG/CC. We both required cables at least one end of the field.

Cheers,
Biff

According to the Dash 1 a B-52H at its Normal Max Takeoff Weight (450,000 lbs), would have a ground roll of about 6200', and cleat 60' at about 8200' on a Standard Day (59 deg F / 15 Deg C, 29.92" Hg Barometric Pressure / 1003 mBars) - Hot days require a lot more. You also have to factor in the space needed to stop in case of an aborted takeoff.
And old D Model, same weight and condition, would require about 8400' ground roll, and 10,700' to clear 50'
Note that Andersen AFB's runways are 10,600 and 11,200' respectively.
Most former SAC Bases have similar runway lengths - the B-47 needed about 10,500' to get a loaded ship off without JATO.

GreenKnight121 · Aug 4, 2024

GregP said:
A full-loaded B-52 needs more than that. At least, the ones with J57 jet engines did. The J57 had anywhere from 8,700 lbf (39 kN) to 13,750 lnf (61.2 kN). In 1961, they started being delivered with TF33 turbofans with 17,100 lbf (17 kN). In the mid-1970s, they started thinking about using Rolls-Royce RB211 engines, but never did use them. In 2001, the USAF decided to purchase 650 Rolls-Royce F130s.

The decision to purchase RR F130s (BR725 variant) to re-engine the B-52s was 2021, not 2001.

tyrodtom · Aug 7, 2024

GregP said:
At Ellsworth in the 1970s, we flew D's and H's.

Not too sure how heavy they were when they launched; I worked on the Minuteman ICBM Missiles. I had friends who flew the B-52s, but we didn't talk about aircraft performance.

I was at Seymour Johnson AFB in 66. Not sure what model B-52 they had , but I remember Hound Dogs mounted on them.
But the aircraft were fully armed, otherwise what was the point ?
The area where they kept the nukes was right beside the conventional weapons munitions storage area I worked in.
Their security was much tighter. Guards with dogs, 24/7.
From being so close to them, even our dump was a " no lone zone" nobody could go anywhere in the storage area by themselves.

In the about 6-7 months I was there they had at least 4 alerts.
Every B-52, plus their tanker had to be in the air in a certain time limit.
I now know if any of the alerts had been the real thing, SJ AFB would have been a smoking hole just a few minutes after the aircraft were gone, at best.
I knew it then too, but just didn't dwell on it. I thought it would be over quick, and I wouldn't feel a thing. Young and dumb.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 7, 2024

tyrodtom said:
I was at Seymour Johnson AFB in 66. Not sure what model B-52 they had , but I remember Hound Dogs mounted on them.
But the aircraft were fully armed, otherwise what was the point ?
The area where they kept the nukes was right beside the conventional weapons munitions storage area I worked in.
Their security was much tighter. Guards with dogs, 24/7.
From being so close to them, even our dump was a " no lone zone" nobody could go anywhere in the storage area by themselves.

In the about 6-7 months I was there they had at least 4 alerts.
Every B-52, plus their tanker had to be in the air in a certain time limit.
I now know if any of the alerts had been the real thing, SJ AFB would have been a smoking hole just a few minutes after the aircraft were gone, at best.
I knew it then too, but just didn't dwell on it. I thought it would be over quick, and I wouldn't feel a thing. Young and dumb.

We kept 8 BUFFs and 4 -135s cocked and loaded on our alert pad. If any maintenance was done on alert planes and we lowly firefighters had to bring a truck in for standby, line badges were shown, guards stationed, and coffee issued. Against all regulations, I still have my line badge.

Once the klaxon sounded, we had five minutes to the first wheels-up. Your ass had better be in your truck at assigned position. We did this 4-6 times a year, quarterly on a wing level and once or twice for an ORI or IG visit.

Hard runways in WWII

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