Heinkel He 112

[ChaseR83]

Greetings,

I'm new to the forum, after doing a little searching, its seems nobody has ever brought up the Heinkel He 112. Is anybody else a fan of this fighter?

. I've purchased every book I can find on the plane, only to find that half the time the information contained within conflicts with the other sources. Does anybody know of source of some actual Heinkel technical drawings for the plane?

Are there any surviving He 112s? All my searching says no, but you never know, one might be sitting in a dusty old hanger in Romania, or wrecked somewhere in a forest or river.

Would anybody like to debate the merits of the He 112 vs. the Bf 109 or other mid 30's designs?

 

[imalko]

Hello mate and welcome to the forum.

Well, regarding the He 112, I'm sure this aircraft was discussed many times in one context or another on the forum. Not sure if there is some thread dedicated specifically to this aircraft, though.

To start the discussion... In my opinion, Bf 109 was deserved winner over He 112 in competition for new Luftwaffe fighter. Only later redesigned variants of He 112 could compete with Messerschmitt's design on more or less equal terms, but at that time it was too late as Bf 109 already entered production by then...

 

[Civettone]

Hello mate and welcome to the forum.

Well, regarding the He 112, I'm sure this aircraft was discussed many times in one context or another on the forum. Not sure if there is some thread dedicated specifically to this aircraft, though.

There must be. I lost count of how many times we have discussed the He 112 and 100

I also comprehend the choice for the Bf 109 and I am very sceptical of any political conspiracy theories. We also have to be careful not to look at it too much in hindsight (such as the extra range needed for the BoB) but try to see things as they saw it back in 1938 and 1939.

Kris

 

[ChaseR83]

Despite being a fan of the 112,

I totally agree, the 109 got the finish line first. Although I do not think that the production early series 109s were any better than the 112B.

IMO, Heinkel and the Gunter brothers did themselves in by continuously changing the design of the 112. Two different fuselage designs, 3 different sets of wings... numerous little time wasting detail changes doomed the 112.

They would have been much better off simply refining the He 112A series planes. The should have lowered the spine on the rear fuselage, fitted the plane with a bubble canopy, and perhaps built a wing with thinner airfoil... instead of making it smaller.

The larger, heavier 112 would have really benefited from a more powerful engine.... the ones that would later be crammed into the 109.... degrading its handling qualities. I'm not really up to speed on the 109, how exactly did they get DB engines?

The RLM specifications stated the new fighter was to use the Jumo 210... and this engine forever crippled the 112. All pilot reports I have state that the 112 was a delightful plane with a lousy engine.

Several 112 prototype were fitted with DB 600 (later 601) engines, one B series plane reached 354mph.

 

[ChaseR83]

There must be. I lost count of how many times we have discussed the He 112 and 100

I also comprehend the choice for the Bf 109 and I am very sceptical of any political conspiracy theories. We also have to be careful not to look at it too much in hindsight (such as the extra range needed for the BoB) but try to see things as they saw it back in 1938 and 1939.

Kris

I found a few old posts on the He 100, but couldn't find more than a passing mention of the 112. As far as politics go... I think it definitely played a role in the meager export sales of the 112, several smaller allies of Germany and a few neutral nations expressed interest in the 112... Heinkel was constantly jumping through political hoops trying to get exports of the plane approved.

Perhaps had export sales been healthy.... Heinkel would have been still building 112s (possibly a further upgraded version) during the BoB. The Luftwaffe could have gotten a longer range fighter buy simply seizing a few shipments of export 112s, which they had already done previously. But we will never know.

So does anybody know of any surviving 112s, even in relic condition?

 

[davebender]

Luftwaffe could have gotten a longer range fighter buy simply seizing a few shipments of export 112s

Did the He-112 carry significantly more fuel then the Me-109?

 

[ChaseR83]

Its tough to make an exact comparison,

But from my quick search, it appears that a He 112B with a fuel injected Jumo 210 had the same range without a drop tank, as an Bf 109E did with a drop tank.

But that is quick check, I could be wrong. And that totally ignores the relative fuel consumption of the two different engines.

 

[davebender]

The Luftwaffe is not going to purchase first line fighter aircraft powered by the Jumo 210. Any He-112s they purchase will be powered by the DB600 / DB601 / DB605 series.

 

[ChaseR83]

They would also never allow a DB powered fighter to be exported the first several years of the war....

They didn't even want to allow the 112 to be exported with the fuel injected Jumo 210. The Luftwaffe did seize all available export 112s during the Sudeten Crisis in 1937/38... returning them later and further damaging Heinkel's hopes that the fighter would be successful on the export market.

 

[Civettone]

I found a few old posts on the He 100, but couldn't find more than a passing mention of the 112. As far as politics go... I think it definitely played a role in the meager export sales of the 112, several smaller allies of Germany and a few neutral nations expressed interest in the 112... Heinkel was constantly jumping through political hoops trying to get exports of the plane approved.

It got exported to 4 countries which is about all one can expect. It is not that any of the big western powers would buy a German aircraft.

Perhaps had export sales been healthy.... Heinkel would have been still building 112s (possibly a further upgraded version) during the BoB. The Luftwaffe could have gotten a longer range fighter buy simply seizing a few shipments of export 112s, which they had already done previously. But we will never know.

That would have been nice.

As to the range of the He 112, we should need to compare with the Bf 109 with a Jumo 210 engine. Does anybody have some data on that?
The He 112 had 317 liters of fuel, internally that is. How much did the Bf 109B/C carry?

So does anybody know of any surviving 112s, even in relic condition?

none survived. Perhaps some parts in Spain where the last one served until the early 50s.

Kris

 

[ChaseR83]

IIRC,

The last couple of airworthy (sort of) He 112s that Spain had were still listed in their records as late as 1952. Romania also had several flying He 112s after the war. Since Romania was absorbed into the Soviet Union after WW2, its stands to figure if any 112 has a chance of surviving, it is stashed away with other cold war relics waiting to be found.

But I'm not holding my breath...

 

[ChaseR83]

Here is some info I found while doing my weekly "He 112" internet search.

He-112B:
Engine: Junkers Jumo-210 680 HP
Speed (ground level): 430 km/h
Speed (optimal altitude): 510 km/h
Climb: 700 m/min
Range: 1100 km

Bf-109B:
Engine: Junkers Jumo-210 680 HP
Speed (ground level): 420 km/h
Speed (optimal altitude): 470 km/h
Climb: 600 m/min
Range: 700 km

Again I can't vouch for accuracy because I found it on the net.

 

[davebender]

Me109
According to the above site the Me-109 carried 400 liters of fuel. If this data is correct then I doubt the He-112 had a superior combat radius. More likely the reverse is true.

 

[Civettone]

The He 112 had a lower wing load resulting in longer range. Also the air foil was thicker though I am not sure if that has any effect on it.


Kris

 

[imalko]

They would also never allow a DB powered fighter to be exported the first several years of the war....

Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3s were being exported to Yugoslavia as early as 1939.

On 5th April 1939 contract was signed between Kingdom of Yugoslavia and Germany about exporting 50 airplanes Bf 109E-3 and 25 spare DB 601A engines. In June 1939 the delivery of another 50 examples was agreed. The deliveries commenced in fall of 1939 when first three Bf 109E-3s were flown from Augsburg to Zemun. Deliveries in small batches continued until mid 1940. All in all 73 examples of Bf 109E-3 were delivered to Yugoslavia (although the contract was signed for 100 aircraft) and these saw service against the Luftwaffe in April 1941.

 

[ChaseR83]

Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3s were being exported to Yugoslavia as early as 1939.

Which seems to lend weight to the argument that the RLM was biased against Heinkel, because in August 1938, the RLM refused to allow the export of He 112s with fuel injected Jumo 210s to Yugoslavia... despite allowing Romania to purchase them.

 

[Civettone]

I don't know if the reason for that is political...
Perhaps they wanted Heinkel to focus on the He 100. If the RLM was really anti-Heinkel they would not have allowed the He 100 to compete, or even to be developed.

I remember what they did when they had problems with Junkers. They simply removed him and made Junkers a government aircraft company. If they really disliked Heinkel they would have done the same thing.
Kris

 

[imalko]

I don't seem to recall about hearing that Yugoslavia was ever interested in buying He 112...

Author Len Deighton in his book "Fighter-The True Story of Battle of Britain" wrote that at the time of fighter competition RLM (and especially Milch) was actually biased against Messerschmitt and not Heinkel. Heinkel had a lot of political support in RLM at that time, so the fact that Bf 109 won after all is proof that it was overall better aircraft then He 112. Even Udet favored He 112 at first, but changed his mind after seeing Bf 109 in flight.

 

[Marcel]

Greetings,

I'm new to the forum, after doing a little searching, its seems nobody has ever brought up the Heinkel He 112. Is anybody else a fan of this fighter?

A quick search:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/polls/would-he112-instead-bf109-have-made-any-difference-8779.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/multilingual-corner/heinkel-he-112-y-he-100-a-14712.html

And I know there are many more.

I have a description of the LVA testing the He112 fighter in 1938 or so. If anyone is interested (and I feel like it ) I'll translate it and write it here.

 

[Civettone]

I would love to see that Marcel. If nobody else is interested you can also just send the Dutch version to me


Kris