highest kill ratio

[topspeed]

In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower

FAF Me-109G had 25:1 and Brewsters 33:1 and Fiat G-50 44:1.

All thanks to good quality planes and excellent pilot education/training.

 

[Juha3]

Wasn't the FM-2 based on Grumman's XF4F-8?

 

[topspeed]

The Finnish Buffaloes gave a very good account for themselves as well

Yes but also Fokker D-21 pilots had 15:1 - 16:1 killratio.

Kill ratio is curious phenomena.

Even polish AF with PZL-11 planes and dutch pilots with Fokker D-21 had a higher kill ratio than the lost ratio against overhelming enemy.

In 1931 the polish PZL-11 was a superior fighter aircraft compared to any contemporary aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_P.11#/media/File:pZL_P.11c_'39_-_2'_(14336386246).jpg

[History] Fokker D.XXI | War Thunder Wiki

The Fokker D.XXI was a single-seat fighter aircraft designed and manufactured by the Dutch aviation company Fokker. It served primarily with the Netherlands’ Luchtvaartafdeeling (LVA) (Aviation Department) during the late 1930s, the Finnish Air Force in …

wiki.warthunder.com

 

[andrewgeorge]

FAF Me-109G had 25:1 and Brewsters 33:1 and Fiat G-50 44:1.

All thanks to good quality planes and excellent pilot education/training.

Take all those numbers with an enormous grain of salt. Those are claims against known combat losses.

Just about everyone who has dug into the veracity of combat claims by cross checking against loss records from the opposing Air Forces has found significant overclaiming, with a claim to actual enemy loss ratio anywhere from 2:1 to 6:1 being common.

WW2 air combat was fast and chaotic with limited situational awareness. People's eyes play tricks on them in those situations. Also, there were a lot of incentives (morale, career, ego, etc) for over-optimism.

Overclaiming was a known phenomenon, but even still it sometimes misled strategic planning—in Summer, 1940, the Germans believed their fighter pilots were inflicting far more damage on Fighter Command than they actually were. In 1941-1942, the RAF mistakenly believed its fighter sweeps were doing far more damage to Luftwaffe strength in France that they actually were. In 1943, Yamamoto believed his air offensive the Solomons had dealt a significant blow to allied air strength in the South Pacific, when in fact he had just exchanged about an equal number of aircraft and lost a large number of pilots against the much larger, and rapidly growing allied Air Forces—a clear strategic defeat. It got him killed when he flew down to Bougainville to congratulate his air crews.

 

[topspeed]

Take all those numbers with an enormous grain of salt. Those are claims against known combat losses.

Just about everyone who has dug into the veracity of combat claims by cross checking against loss records from the opposing Air Forces has found significant overclaiming, with a claim to actual enemy loss ratio anywhere from 2:1 to 6:1 being common.

WW2 air combat was fast and chaotic with limited situational awareness. People's eyes play tricks on them in those situations. Also, there were a lot of incentives (morale, career, ego, etc) for over-optimism.

Overclaiming was a known phenomenon, but even still it sometimes misled strategic planning—in Summer, 1940, the Germans believed their fighter pilots were inflicting far more damage on Fighter Command than they actually were. In 1941-1942, the RAF mistakenly believed its fighter sweeps were doing far more damage to Luftwaffe strength in France that they actually were. In 1943, Yamamoto believed his air offensive the Solomons had dealt a significant blow to allied air strength in the South Pacific, when in fact he had just exchanged about an equal number of aircraft and lost a large number of pilots against the much larger, and rapidly growing allied Air Forces—a clear strategic defeat. It got him killed when he flew down to Bougainville to congratulate his air crews.

It is possible...I recall Haartmann wingman had no kills at all....but got a lot later. Maybe 200 of Eric Haartmann kills belonged to his wing man. Go figure.

I know for sure several of our aces had a lot more kills than they were even credited for....for instance Kyösti Karhila. He jus didn't have a wing man to proof it. After the war an infantryman was able to vefify the kills....of downed 5 Il-2s ( also Soviet archives were able to proof them ).

So what ever happened in Pacific or in Normandy may not necessarily apply on the Karelian Istmus...how much ever you want to down play our aviators work in saving our nation.

 

[andrewgeorge]

It is possible...I recall Haartmann wingman had no kills at all....but got a lot later. Maybe 200 of Eric Haartmann kills belonged to his wing man. Go figure.

I know for sure several of our aces had a lot more kills than they were even credited for....for instance Kyösti Karhila. He jus didn't have a wing man to proof it. After the war an infantryman was able to vefify the kills....of downed 5 Il-2s ( also Soviet archives were able to proof them ).

So what ever happened in Pacific or in Normandy may not necessarily apply on the Karelian Istmus...how much ever you want to down play our aviators work in saving our nation.

It is possible...I recall Haartmann wingman had no kills at all....but got a lot later. Maybe 200 of Eric Haartmann kills belonged to his wing man. Go figure.

I know for sure several of our aces had a lot more kills than they were even credited for....for instance Kyösti Karhila. He jus didn't have a wing man to proof it. After the war an infantryman was able to vefify the kills....of downed 5 Il-2s ( also Soviet archives were able to proof them ).

So what ever happened in Pacific or in Normandy may not necessarily apply on the Karelian Istmus...how much ever you want to down play our aviators work in saving our nation.

No downplaying anyone's service during the war!

But it was more than 80 years ago now, and I think it's okay with this amount of distance that we let go of some of the mythologies surrounding the war.

Overclaiming by fighter pilots was pretty much ubiquitous, and I don't see any reason to believe the Finns were an exception. It's one thing to look at one side's claims, and assess the methodology and protocol of how they were made and "confirmed."

But at this point, with the individuals deceased, there's no reason not to cross check those claims against actual losses recorded by the opposing Air Force. And when folks have done that, almost without exception they come up with an overall pattern of significant overclaiming. Far more than can be explained by gaps in operational record keeping.

Really, the simple question is this: if the claims don't match the losses—sometimes more claims than existing enemy aircraft—who is likelier to have been mistaken? Eager, ambitious, adrenaline-soaked aircrew in a chaotic, uncertain aerial combat situation, or the administrative officers at airbases recording planes returning from sortie?

Hence the grain of salt. It shouldn't invalidate or undermine anyone's assessment of the men (or women, in the case of the Soviets) who flew the aircraft or the importance of honoring their wartime service.

 

[topspeed]

No downplaying anyone's service during the war!

But it was more than 80 years ago now, and I think it's okay with this amount of distance that we let go of some of the mythologies surrounding the war.

Overclaiming by fighter pilots was pretty much ubiquitous, and I don't see any reason to believe the Finns were an exception. It's one thing to look at one side's claims, and assess the methodology and protocol of how they were made and "confirmed."

But at this point, with the individuals deceased, there's no reason not to cross check those claims against actual losses recorded by the opposing Air Force. And when folks have done that, almost without exception they come up with an overall pattern of significant overclaiming. Far more than can be explained by gaps in operational record keeping.

Really, the simple question is this: if the claims don't match the losses—sometimes more claims than existing enemy aircraft—who is likelier to have been mistaken? Eager, ambitious, adrenaline-soaked aircrew in a chaotic, uncertain aerial combat situation, or the administrative officers at airbases recording planes returning from sortie?

Hence the grain of salt. It shouldn't invalidate or undermine anyone's assessment of the men (or women, in the case of the Soviets) who flew the aircraft or the importance of honoring their wartime service.

Ok...I have a funny feeling you did not read very carefully what I just wrote yesterday to you.

---

Here is once more the known data of the polish AF statistic during the battle of Poland:

During the 1939 September Campaign (the Battle of Poland), the Polish Air Force claimed approximately 105 to 126 German aircraft shot down while losing around 79 to loss/destruction figures exceeding 70% of their operational fleet. [1, 2, 3]

Campaign Details (September 1–6, 1939)

• • Initial Claims: In the first six days of the invasion by Nazi Germany, Polish fighter units (flying aircraft like the PZL P.11) claimed 105 German aircraft. [1]
  • Luftwaffe Strength: Faced a vastly superior German force of over 1,300 modern aircraft against roughly 400 operational Polish combat planes. [1]
  • Tactics: Relied on decentralized, secret satellite airfields to survive longer than the myth of a "three-day destruction" suggests. [1, 2]
  • Soviet Front: On September 17, following the Soviet invasion, Polish forces managed to shoot down an additional 8 Soviet planes amidst the collapsing defense.
• Dutch startistics:

During the May 1940 campaign, the small Royal Netherlands Air Force (Luchtvaartafdeling) achieved around 30 to 35 confirmed aerial victory claims against the Luftwaffe, though exact figures remain difficult to fully verify due to lost wartime records. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Campaign Context and Air Combat

• • The Force Disparity: The Dutch entered the German invasion on May 10, 1940, with roughly 155 operational aircraft facing the much larger Luftwaffe, which deployed over 830 aircraft. [1, 2]
  • Operational Successes: Despite being heavily outnumbered, Dutch Fokker D.XXI fighters and bomber crews managed to shoot down numerous German transport planes (such as Ju 52s) carrying paratroopers during the Battle of the Hague at airfields like Ypenburg and Valkenburg, alongside several Messerschmitt fighters.
  • Overall Losses: The Luftwaffe lost between 225 and 275 aircraft total during the brief 5-day campaign over the Netherlands—suffering heavy losses from both Dutch air-to-air engagements, ground strafing, and fierce anti-aircraft artillery fire. [1, 2, 3]

During the five-day invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940, the Royal Netherlands Air Force (Luchtvaartafdeling) was credited with 38 confirmed aerial victories. Out of those, exactly 16 confirmed kills were achieved by pilots flying the Fokker D.XXI. [1, 2]
Despite being much slower and more lightly armed than standard German fighters, the D.XXI relied on its exceptional low-altitude maneuverability to achieve a positive kill-to-loss ratio in direct dogfights. [1, 2]

Breakdown of Confirmed Kills by Type
Historical data from sources like War Over Holland breaks down the 16 confirmed D.XXI aerial victories as follows: [1]

• 5 × Messerschmitt Bf 109 (German front-line monoplane fighters)
• 5 × Messerschmitt Bf 110 (Heavy twin-engine escort fighters)
• 2 × Junkers Ju 88 (Twin-engine medium bombers)
• 2 × Junkers Ju 52 (Three-engine paratrooper transports)
• 1 × Heinkel He 111 (Medium bomber)
• 1 × Dornier Do 17 (Light bomber) [1]

-------------------------

So both polish and dutch fighter pilots had positive kill ratio over an 8-10 fold enemy....with totally obsolete fighters.

OTOH FAF fought with Fokker D-21s when they were still capable against biplanes and I-16s.

FAF pilot Rinkineva even shot down a Bell P-39 Airacobra with a war booty I-152 Tchaika.

The 1600 + kill FAF scored during the battles were possibly not totally accurate as some claimed kills over P-51D and Spitfires as there were officially none there.

The Finnish Air Force shot down 1,621 Soviet aircraft during World War II while losing only 210 of their own. [1]
Overall Statistics

• 
  Total Soviet aircraft claimed/shot down: 1,621Total Finnish aircraft lost: 210Victory ratio: Roughly 7.7 to 1 overall, and significantly higher with specific modern aircraft like the Brewster Buffalo (32:1). [1, 2]

Top Finnish Fighter Aces

• 
  Eino Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen: Finland's top ace with 94 confirmed victories (top non-German ace of all time).Hans "Hasse" Wind: Second highest score with 75 confirmed victories.Urho Lehtovaara: Achieved 44 confirmed victories.Oiva Tuominen: Achieved 43.5 confirmed victories. [1, 2]

Key Aircraft Successes

• 
  Brewster B-239 Buffalo: Achieved an exceptional victory-to-loss ratio against Soviet planes, with top pilots like Hans Wind scoring dozens of kills in the type.Messerschmitt Bf 109G: Flown later in the war by top aces like Juutilainen to maintain air superiority.Curtiss Hawk (Sussu): Credited with 190⅓ kills during the Continuation War. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Ther was a saying in the finnish army that one finn is worth 10 russians...but it was always followed with the question: What happens if the 11th comes ? That was the tough question.

----

I forgot AI on P-36/A-75:

The Finnish Air Force achieved 190 1/3 aerial victories (kills) using the Curtiss P-36 Hawk (Hawk 75) during World War II. [1]

Operational Details

• • Dates: Fought between July 16, 1941, and July 27, 1944.
  • Unit: Flown primarily by Lentolaivue 32 (Flight Squadron 32).
  • Losses: Only 15 aircraft were lost in combat.
  • Pilots: 58 different Finnish pilots achieved victories with the type.
  • Nickname: Affectionately called "Sussu" ("Sweetheart") by Finnish pilots.
  • Acquisition: Finland bought 44 captured/crank-crated Hawk 75s from German stocks (originating from French and Norwegian orders). [1, 2, 3, 4]

Top P-36 Aces in Finland

• • Kyösti "Kössi" Karhila: Scored 13 1/4 of his total 32 1/4 victories in the Hawk.
  • Altto Kalevi "Kale" Tervo: The highest-scoring Hawk ace, credited with 15 3/4 victories in the type. [1]

 

[andrewgeorge]

Ok...I have a funny feeling you did not read very carefully what I just wrote yesterday to you.

---

Here is once more the known data of the polish AF statistic during the battle of Poland:

During the 1939 September Campaign (the Battle of Poland), the Polish Air Force claimed approximately 105 to 126 German aircraft shot down while losing around 79 to loss/destruction figures exceeding 70% of their operational fleet. [1, 2, 3]

Campaign Details (September 1–6, 1939)

• • Initial Claims: In the first six days of the invasion by Nazi Germany, Polish fighter units (flying aircraft like the PZL P.11) claimed 105 German aircraft. [1]
  • Luftwaffe Strength: Faced a vastly superior German force of over 1,300 modern aircraft against roughly 400 operational Polish combat planes. [1]
  • Tactics: Relied on decentralized, secret satellite airfields to survive longer than the myth of a "three-day destruction" suggests. [1, 2]
  • Soviet Front: On September 17, following the Soviet invasion, Polish forces managed to shoot down an additional 8 Soviet planes amidst the collapsing defense.
• Dutch startistics:

During the May 1940 campaign, the small Royal Netherlands Air Force (Luchtvaartafdeling) achieved around 30 to 35 confirmed aerial victory claims against the Luftwaffe, though exact figures remain difficult to fully verify due to lost wartime records. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Campaign Context and Air Combat

• • The Force Disparity: The Dutch entered the German invasion on May 10, 1940, with roughly 155 operational aircraft facing the much larger Luftwaffe, which deployed over 830 aircraft. [1, 2]
  • Operational Successes: Despite being heavily outnumbered, Dutch Fokker D.XXI fighters and bomber crews managed to shoot down numerous German transport planes (such as Ju 52s) carrying paratroopers during the Battle of the Hague at airfields like Ypenburg and Valkenburg, alongside several Messerschmitt fighters.
  • Overall Losses: The Luftwaffe lost between 225 and 275 aircraft total during the brief 5-day campaign over the Netherlands—suffering heavy losses from both Dutch air-to-air engagements, ground strafing, and fierce anti-aircraft artillery fire. [1, 2, 3]

During the five-day invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940, the Royal Netherlands Air Force (Luchtvaartafdeling) was credited with 38 confirmed aerial victories. Out of those, exactly 16 confirmed kills were achieved by pilots flying the Fokker D.XXI. [1, 2]
Despite being much slower and more lightly armed than standard German fighters, the D.XXI relied on its exceptional low-altitude maneuverability to achieve a positive kill-to-loss ratio in direct dogfights. [1, 2]

Breakdown of Confirmed Kills by Type
Historical data from sources like War Over Holland breaks down the 16 confirmed D.XXI aerial victories as follows: [1]

• 5 × Messerschmitt Bf 109 (German front-line monoplane fighters)
• 5 × Messerschmitt Bf 110 (Heavy twin-engine escort fighters)
• 2 × Junkers Ju 88 (Twin-engine medium bombers)
• 2 × Junkers Ju 52 (Three-engine paratrooper transports)
• 1 × Heinkel He 111 (Medium bomber)
• 1 × Dornier Do 17 (Light bomber) [1]

-------------------------

So both polish and dutch fighter pilots had positive kill ratio over an 8-10 fold enemy....with totally obsolete fighters.

OTOH FAF fought with Fokker D-21s when they were still capable against biplanes and I-16s.

FAF pilot Rinkineva even shot down a Bell P-39 Airacobra with a war booty I-152 Tchaika.

The 1600 + kill FAF scored during the battles were possibly not totally accurate as some claimed kills over P-51D and Spitfires as there were officially none there.

The Finnish Air Force shot down 1,621 Soviet aircraft during World War II while losing only 210 of their own. [1]
Overall Statistics

• 
  Total Soviet aircraft claimed/shot down: 1,621Total Finnish aircraft lost: 210Victory ratio: Roughly 7.7 to 1 overall, and significantly higher with specific modern aircraft like the Brewster Buffalo (32:1). [1, 2]

Top Finnish Fighter Aces

• 
  Eino Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen: Finland's top ace with 94 confirmed victories (top non-German ace of all time).Hans "Hasse" Wind: Second highest score with 75 confirmed victories.Urho Lehtovaara: Achieved 44 confirmed victories.Oiva Tuominen: Achieved 43.5 confirmed victories. [1, 2]

Key Aircraft Successes

• 
  Brewster B-239 Buffalo: Achieved an exceptional victory-to-loss ratio against Soviet planes, with top pilots like Hans Wind scoring dozens of kills in the type.Messerschmitt Bf 109G: Flown later in the war by top aces like Juutilainen to maintain air superiority.Curtiss Hawk (Sussu): Credited with 190⅓ kills during the Continuation War. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Ther was a saying in the finnish army that one finn is worth 10 russians...but it was always followed with the question: What happens if the 11th comes ? That was the tough question.

----

I forgot AI on P-36/A-75:

The Finnish Air Force achieved 190 1/3 aerial victories (kills) using the Curtiss P-36 Hawk (Hawk 75) during World War II. [1]

Operational Details

• • Dates: Fought between July 16, 1941, and July 27, 1944.
  • Unit: Flown primarily by Lentolaivue 32 (Flight Squadron 32).
  • Losses: Only 15 aircraft were lost in combat.
  • Pilots: 58 different Finnish pilots achieved victories with the type.
  • Nickname: Affectionately called "Sussu" ("Sweetheart") by Finnish pilots.
  • Acquisition: Finland bought 44 captured/crank-crated Hawk 75s from German stocks (originating from French and Norwegian orders). [1, 2, 3, 4]

Top P-36 Aces in Finland

• • Kyösti "Kössi" Karhila: Scored 13 1/4 of his total 32 1/4 victories in the Hawk.
  • Altto Kalevi "Kale" Tervo: The highest-scoring Hawk ace, credited with 15 3/4 victories in the type. [1]

Those are all fascinating histories, and I don't want to beat a dead horse but I think they sort of illustrate the point: I suspect if you look at the German claim/loss exchange ratios against Polish and Dutch fighters you'll find that the Germans also thought they got the better of the engagements—probably by an even bigger margin!

 

[MIflyer]

I have an article somewhere that says the FM-2 Wildcat had a tremendous kill ratio. But by the time it got into combat it was relegated to escort carriers and it's main targets were bombers coming after the carriers. I'd guess that the chance of a Japanese bomber scoring a kill against a souped up Wildcat had to be pretty low.

 

[andrewgeorge]

I have an article somewhere that says the FM-2 Wildcat had a tremendous kill ratio. But by the time it got into combat it was relegated to escort carriers and it's main targets were bombers coming after the carriers. I'd guess that the chance of a Japanese bomber scoring a kill against a souped up Wildcat had to be pretty low.

By sheer numbers mostly kamikazes I suspect!