highest kill ratio (8 Viewers)

[topspeed]

Once again, there were no Mustangs on the Finnish Front. Nor were there Spitfires, Lightnings or Kingcobras. This has all been well-established since the '90s. Finnish pilots misidentified a variety of domestic Soviet types for Western types. Actually on that note, in the Winter War many Finns misidentified Soviet SB and DB bombers for Martin and Douglas bombers respectively, manufactured under license in the USSR. This comes up at least a couple of times e.g. in Robert Winston's Aces Wild.

Who misidentified the SB and DB bombers during Winter War ?

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Anyway the numerically most planes were P-39 airacobras in the skies over Karelia in 1944....with Il-2s.

In case on Lars Hattinen shooting 2 Airacobras with a Morane Saulnier he was engaged with 30 Airacobras and 20 Il-2....P-39s as air cover.

When Yrjö Pallasvuo shot Airacobras in an huge dogfight he was shor down by an Airacobra... I recall he was in fight with 30-50 Airacobra...alone.

Also Captain Hans Wind with 75 kills was shot by an Airacobra...or Yak-9.

So the planes Kössi misidentified as "Mustangs" were possibly foreign type he had never seen up close before with his slow 109 G6 with R6. Most likely Airacobras.


---

I was also able to interview another sergeant about what he saw in the skies during summer of 1944. He was the father of a Jukka-Talo ( talo=house ) representaive who also has died by now. Anywway his daddy told their company was totally surprised on a march....and Il-2s caused a terrifying panic that he still vividly remembered. Horses rambled and some died....and blood everywhere and screaming men.....cannot remember were they with evaquees too. Anyway...this is what most infantry men ( as well as fleeing civilians ) were witnessing on the ground. Very terrifying chaos in the head of that sergeant. I am grateful to both sergeants RIP.

 

[bf109xxl]

Anyway the numerically most planes were P-39 airacobras in the skies over Karelia in 1944....with Il-2s.

Could you please provide some figures to illustrate this?

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

Who misidentified the SB and DB bombers during Winter War ?

As I understand it was a kind of scuttlebutt going around at the time. In this particular case it was Kurt Berger who relayed it to Winston et al.

Which reminds me, in the 2000s I came across a claim from one very unreliable Finnish site, where it was claimed that in the Winter War of 1939-40 the Soviets were bombing Finland with American lend-lease bombers that still had USAAF markings on them. Complete hogwash of course; the Lend-Lease Act wasn't even passed until March 1941, with deliveries of American bombers to the USSR occurring much later. One can't help feeling though that this particular myth probably shares origins with mistaking SBs and DBs for Martin and Douglas types.

Could you please provide some figures to illustrate this?

As it so happens I made a table back in March 2025 that's perfect here. Here's the disposition of VVS forces amassed for the Soviet offensive on the Karelian Isthmus in June 1944:

In total that's:

413 Il-2
92 Il-4
71 Tu-2
182 Pe-2

36 A-20G

40 Yak-1
13 Yak-7
24 Yak-7B
287 Yak-9
88 LaGG-3
266 La-5
1 La-7

7 Hurricane
15 P-40
111 P-39

84 U-2
2 O-52
13 S-2
7 S-4
4 Li-2
2 C-47
1 Yak-6
4 Be-4

+ potentially 20 aircraft from the VVS LVF and some trainers, liaison aircraft/squadron hacks.

While these are just the forces of these units at the start of the operation, and a strength list isn't the same as a sortie list, I think it's safe to say his claim about the P-39 being the most common Soviet aircraft over the Karelian Isthmus in the summer of 1944 is not correct, not even remotely. I've never heard anyone even make such a claim before.

 

[bf109xxl]

I think it's safe to say his claim about the P-39 being the most common Soviet aircraft over the Karelian Isthmus in the summer of 1944 is not correct, not even remotely. I've never heard anyone even make such a claim before.

Excellent work, thank you! That's exactly what I expected, but I was too lazy to go through all the fighter regiments one by one.

 

[topspeed]

As I understand it was a kind of scuttlebutt going around at the time. In this particular case it was Kurt Berger who relayed it to Winston et al.

Which reminds me, in the 2000s I came across a claim from one very unreliable Finnish site, where it was claimed that in the Winter War of 1939-40 the Soviets were bombing Finland with American lend-lease bombers that still had USAAF markings on them. Complete hogwash of course; the Lend-Lease Act wasn't even passed until March 1941, with deliveries of American bombers to the USSR occurring much later. One can't help feeling though that this particular myth probably shares origins with mistaking SBs and DBs for Martin and Douglas types.



As it so happens I made a table back in March 2025 that's perfect here. Here's the disposition of VVS forces amassed for the Soviet offensive on the Karelian Isthmus in June 1944:

View attachment 897486
View attachment 897487

In total that's:

413 Il-2
92 Il-4
71 Tu-2
182 Pe-2

36 A-20G

40 Yak-1
13 Yak-7
24 Yak-7B
287 Yak-9
88 LaGG-3
266 La-5
1 La-7

7 Hurricane
15 P-40
111 P-39

84 U-2
2 O-52
13 S-2
7 S-4
4 Li-2
2 C-47
1 Yak-6
4 Be-4

+ potentially 20 aircraft from the VVS LVF and some trainers, liaison aircraft/squadron hacks.

While these are just the forces of these units at the start of the operation, and a strength list isn't the same as a sortie list, I think it's safe to say his claim about the P-39 being the most common Soviet aircraft over the Karelian Isthmus in the summer of 1944 is not correct, not even remotely. I've never heard anyone even make such a claim before.

I have never heard of such utter nonsense. Where are the sites that states something like this ?

 

[topspeed]

Excellent work, thank you! That's exactly what I expected, but I was too lazy to go through all the fighter regiments one by one.

Fulmen has no idea what he is talking about....to me sounds like a bot. Here even AI knows better:

During the summer 1944 Soviet offensive on the Karelian Isthmus, the Soviet Air Force used American-supplied Bell P-39 Airacobra fighters for escort, ground attack, and fighter sweeps. [1, 2, 3]

Role and Operations

• • Lend-Lease Support: The Soviet Union received thousands of P-39 Airacobras through Western war material aid, deploying them with units like the 2nd Leningrad Guards Fighter Corps (II Gv. IAK) to support operations against Finnish and German forces. [1, 2]
  • Combat Duties: Airacobras regularly escorted Il-2 Sturmovik ground-attack planes and bombers or engaged in sweeps against Finnish fighters over the Karelian Isthmus. Finnish pilots frequently encountered them in aerial combat, where the P-39's heavy 37 mm nose cannon posed a lethal threat. [1, 2, 3]
  
  We are talkin about hundreds of Airacobras airborne same time and same amount of Il-2. Against them finns were able to throw usually a pair of Me-109 G-6s.
  
  Talking about targer rich environment.
  
  Of course few Yak-9s and Lagg-5s were there too....but less in the summer offensive of 1944 which target was to knock Finland out. They partially succeeded. We had to switch sides....and started pushing germans out of Finland.

P-39 seemed to be pretty effective in very large formations....like 30-50 planes ( in several locations at a time ):

The highest individual Finnish tally against P-39 Airacobras during World War II belongs to Captain Hans "Hasse" Wind, who achieved 3 confirmed victories against the type while flying a Messerschmitt Bf 109G. [1, 2, 3]
Wind's specific P-39 victories occurred during the intensive Soviet Summer Offensive of 1944: [1]

• • June 15, 1944: 1 P-39 Airacobra
  • June 19, 1944: 2 P-39 Airacobras (both belonging to the Soviet 196 IAP; one flown by Soviet ace Major A.V. Chirkov, who bailed out) [1]

Ironically, on July 28, 1944, Wind was seriously wounded and forced out of the war when a 37 mm shell fired by a Soviet P-39 exploded against his aircraft's seat armor during a massive dogfight. [1, 2]
Finland's top-scoring ace, Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen, holds the second-highest individual tally with 2 confirmed P-39 victories


As even our top aces were able to score very few of them.

Lars Hattinen had 2 with a Mörkö Morane and apparently Kössi had two...misidentified as P-51s.

• • • Another pilot, Captain Reino Turkki, survived a direct hit from a P-39's 37 mm cannon while flying an M.S. 406. The shell blew apart the fabric of his rear fuselage, but the aircraft held together enough for him to land safely. [1, 2, 3]

Captured "War Booty" P-39s

Finland actually captured three intact Soviet P-39Qs on June 17, 1944, after a flight of Soviet pilots from the Leningrad PVO got lost, ran out of fuel, and force-landed in south-eastern Finland. One of these composite aircraft ("White 26") was thoroughly restored and is now a center prize at the Aviation Museum of Central Finland

Soviets got almost 5 000 P-39Qs.

The Bell P-39Q Airacobra was the final and most-produced variant of the American World War II fighter aircraft, with 4,905 units built out of roughly 9,584 total P-39s. [1, 2]

Key Specifications & Features

• • Engine: Allison V-1710 inline engine (1,200 hp) mounted in the mid-fuselage behind the pilot.
  • Top Speed: Approximately 600–605 km/h (376 mph).
  • Armament: One 37 mm M4 cannon firing through the propeller hub and heavy machine guns (transitioning from .30-caliber to .50-caliber wing/pod guns in various Q sub-variants).
  • Design: Featured a tricycle landing gear and automotive-style side doors.

The Soviet Union received 4,719 Bell P-39 Airacobra fighters (mostly N and Q models) via Lend-Lease, accounting for nearly half of total production and over a third of all Western-supplied fighter aircraft in the VVS. [1]

Why the Soviets Loved the P-39

• • Low-Altitude Performance: Most Eastern Front combat occurred below 15,000 feet, right in the P-39's sweet spot where its single-stage supercharged Allison engine performed well. [1, 2, 3]
  • Heavy Firepower: Fitted with a nose-mounted 37 mm M4 cannon and synchronized heavy machine guns, it was devastating against German bombers and fighters. Soviets often removed the optional wing-mounted machine guns to improve roll rate and save weight. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  • Superior Comfort and Equipment: Soviet pilots praised the spacious heated cockpit, tricycle landing gear for great visibility, reliable two-way radios, and high manufacturing quality compared to domestic aircraft. [1, 2, 3]
  • Tactical Use: Unlike Western misconceptions, the VVS used the P-39 strictly as an air superiority fighter and interceptor rather than a ground-attack tank-buster.

Olli Puhakka had one kill and flight officer Rinkineva with a I-152:

Date	Finnish Pilot	Aircraft Flown	Enemy Unit / Notes	Source / Context
June 15, 1944	Capt. Hans "Hasse" Wind	Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6	Shot down 1 P-39 over the Karelian Isthmus	Hans Wind - Wikipedia
June 19, 1944	Capt. Hans "Hasse" Wind	Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6	Shot down 2 P-39s from the Soviet 196 IAP; one flown by 29-kill ace Major A.V. Chirkov (who bailed out)	Hans Wind - Wikipedia
June 19, 1944	Multiple Pilots (HLeLv 34)	Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6	3 P-39 Airacobras were claimed during a massive dogfight over the Gulf of Finland	Finnish Fighter Aces of WWII
June 1944	Capt. Olli Puhakka	Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-2/G-6	1 P-39 shot down out of a formation of 15 Soviet aircraft near Viipuri	LLv34 History
Unknown Date	Flight Officer Rinkineva	Polikarpov I-152 (War Booty)	An unusual victory where a Finnish pilot used a captured Soviet biplane to shoot down a P-39	Aircraft of World War II

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

I have never heard of such utter nonsense. Where are the sites that states something like this ?

I believe it was on Juhani Putkinen's site (jput.fi). Pretty sure he edited the claim out about 15 years ago. Although, it might've also been some other site.

EDIT: The bit about Berger telling Winston and others, if you were asking about that as well since you emboldened that part too, can be found, as already mentioned, in Robert Winston's Aces Wild, at the beginning of chapter 4.

 

[topspeed]

I believe it was on Juhani Putkinen's site (jput.fi). Pretty sure he edited the claim out about 15 years ago. Although, it might've also been some other site.

EDIT: The bit about Berger telling Winston and others, if you were asking about that as well since you emboldened that part too, can be found, as already mentioned, in Robert Winston's Aces Wild, at the beginning of chapter 4.

View attachment 897523

How come I never came across this before....and why it was never talked anywhere publicly ?

I found this:

Käsitteellinen sekaannus: Sotahistoriassa esiintyy toisinaan mainintoja "Martin-pommituskoneista" Venäjällä vuonna 1939 tai 1941. Kyseessä on usein saksalaisten tekemä tunnistusvirhe: kun Saksa kohtasi itärintamalla Neuvostoliiton moderneja, kokometallisia Tupolev SB-2 -pommituskoneita, saksalaiset luulivat niitä aluksi ulkonäön perusteella amerikkalaisiksi Martin-pommituskoneiksi. [1]

German misidentified SB-2s as american Martin bombers. Probably this started the rumour ? But not until 1941.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

How come I never came across this before....and why it was never talked anywhere publicly ?

I found this:

Käsitteellinen sekaannus: Sotahistoriassa esiintyy toisinaan mainintoja "Martin-pommituskoneista" Venäjällä vuonna 1939 tai 1941. Kyseessä on usein saksalaisten tekemä tunnistusvirhe: kun Saksa kohtasi itärintamalla Neuvostoliiton moderneja, kokometallisia Tupolev SB-2 -pommituskoneita, saksalaiset luulivat niitä aluksi ulkonäön perusteella amerikkalaisiksi Martin-pommituskoneiksi. [1]

German misidentified SB-2 as american Martin bombers. Probably this started the rumour ? But not until 1941.

Why you haven't come across something is something only you can answer.

As for misidentifying SBs and DB-3s as Martin and Douglas bombers respectively, it's a typical effect of fog of war and people talking about topics they're not truly familiar with. The aircraft do bear a physical resemblance to Martin and Douglas products, so it's understandable people made that mistake.

Also for the love of God please stop posting AI slop already. Not only are your chatbots constantly spreading garbage misinformation and false "facts", they're hallucinating much of it from posts from social media. Just look at that one; it's writing off a Facebook post that itself leaves much to be desired, and one that doesn't even make the claims your chatbot conjured up.

 

[CHen10]

Just to clarify as well, when the proof shows Karhila never shot down any IL-2s on 2 July 1944, it is not an attempt to slander him, it is just saying Karhila was genuinely mistaken and that's all. In fact Karhila just claimed them as damaged so he had a feeling that none went down and he was actually correct in his belief that none went down.

 

[topspeed]

Just to clarify as well, when the proof shows Karhila never shot down any IL-2s on 2 July 1944, it is not an attempt to slander him, it is just saying Karhila was genuinely mistaken and that's all. In fact Karhila just claimed them as damaged so he had a feeling that none went down and he was actually correct in his belief that none went down.

No on the video he claimed 5 as killed...in 2004...few years before his death. He was disappointed in 1944 as no one saw them...as he would not get the 5 kills proved....or 6...and thus claim the Mannerheim Cross that came with 50 000 marks as a bonus. But as the word of a sergeant who had seen 6 mysterious kills in a manner of consecutive half barrel rolls he stepped up.

This book came out 2 years before he passed.

https://www.finna.fi/Record/kirkes.334962

I only called him about the sergeant 2008 after I read his book. He died a year later.

We have to face that soviets had 87 000 bombers and fighters... someone had to have shot few of them down.

Politruks certainly displayed all of them go down because of a fuel leak...but to be frank...I bet some one must have shot some of them down. If it weren't romanians and hungarians...then possibly germans....and last but not least the finns...and their well trained AF....and anti-aircraft artillery.

We also fought the german Luftwaffe but I bet our AF did not shoot many of them...less than british, dutch, polish, soviet and french....and US AF.

BTW germans used guided missiles against finns in battle of Kemi where it started....or even here in Oulu. I have to check. As a thank you for getting germans out of Finland soviets greeted us with heavy repairs...we had to work years to make them happy...and they thanked us by not letting marschall help here...no penicillium to sick and no food....thousands died of that. Tuberculosis that ravaged here in the thirdies kept killing people into the sixties....easily curable with penicillium.

The Marshall Plan was a United States foreign aid program that gave over $13 billion to help rebuild Western Europe after World War II. [1, 2]

Key Facts

• • Official Name: The European Recovery Program (ERP).
  • Timeframe: Active from 1948 to 1951.
  • Founder: Proposed by U.S. Secretary of State George C. Marshall and signed by President Harry S. Truman.
  • Recipients: 16 Western and Southern European countries, with the United Kingdom, France, and West Germany receiving the most funds. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Goals and Impact

• • Rebuilding: Restored ruined factories, farms, and transportation.
  • Stopping Communism: Aimed to stop the spread of Soviet influence by creating economic stability.
  • Cold War Division: The Soviet Union rejected the aid and blocked Eastern Bloc nations from taking part, which deepened the split between East and West Europe. [1, 2, 3]

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It appears to be heating up in here. Let's please try and tone it down a bit.

 

[topspeed]

It appears to be heating up in here. Let's please try and tone it down a bit.

Yup...I will. I don't wanna repeat myself a third time.

Kill ratio is a debatable matter....and perfect truth most likely will never be known.

But as a finn we always say...we came out a good second in a fight against 140 million soviets...a 3.8 million nation.

 

[CHen10]

No on the video he claimed 5 as killed...in 2004...few years before his death.

This was many decades after the event and Karhila in his old age was misremembering. He only had 3 damaged, but in his old age misremembered it as 5 kills.

In reality, his original accepted claims for just damaging IL-2s was correct as he never shot down any IL-2s that day