at6
1st Sergeant
Well put Mike. Much of what you've written, I was already aware of and much of it is new to me.
History according to random people...
- Thread starter GrauGeist
- Start date
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Real info is a good thing....cheers Mike.
- Thread starter
- #123
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Well...here we go again! 
I came across more "history" in the comments section of an article about "Secret Nazi Weapons".
Amazing stuff, really...
I learned a great deal from this post...who knew Hydrogen Peroxide was such a dangerous fuel. And Brigadier General Fueher Von Braun, what an awesome title (rank?) - is that like a fire general or something?
This person needs to stop watching those vampire shows on TV...
As for the rest of these...I'm really not sure what to think...
I came across more "history" in the comments section of an article about "Secret Nazi Weapons".
Amazing stuff, really...
I learned a great deal from this post...who knew Hydrogen Peroxide was such a dangerous fuel. And Brigadier General Fueher Von Braun, what an awesome title (rank?) - is that like a fire general or something?
This person needs to stop watching those vampire shows on TV...
As for the rest of these...I'm really not sure what to think...
at6
1st Sergeant
Must have gotten their information from Wikipedia.
Say what.....
Does nobody else find this sort of thing disconcerting? The most worrying for me is that some of it is extrapolation and half truths based on real facts. This is classic conspiracy theorist practice too. The rest of it is just complete nonsense. The complete nonsense doesn't worry me so much.
Cheers
Steve
Cheers
Steve
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
It's rather sad that, people who can't even write properly, or spell, or put a logical sentence together, can actually write and read this utter nonsense - and believe it !!
Again, it's a case of a little knowledge can be dangerous !
Again, it's a case of a little knowledge can be dangerous !
Quite so.
Less seriously, I didn't even know that someone called "hitter" was in the bunker, nor that said person escaped and later worked for the United States government. Nobody called "hitter" appears in any documents or records of interrogation relating to those in the bunker, but it was a confused and fluid situation so he (or she) might have been there
I do know that a chap called Hitler was in the bunker, died there and was at least partially incinerated in a bomb crater. I also have a lot of evidence to support this
Cheers
Steve
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Absolutely.
And I didn't know that von Braun had an as yet unknown rank - brigden fueher (sic) - and that he was in the SS.
I'm quite doubtful that a single type of small arms weapon (the Stg 44) which did go into production and service, would have won the war.
But of course I'm not privy to the information the author of this statement must obviously posses. Perhaps his information would reveal that it could fire nuclear-tipped rounds, a single one of which could destroy a city ?
Oh dear! If one of these semi-literate 'Historians' picks up on that last sentence, it might become fact, and go viral !!!
And I didn't know that von Braun had an as yet unknown rank - brigden fueher (sic) - and that he was in the SS.
I'm quite doubtful that a single type of small arms weapon (the Stg 44) which did go into production and service, would have won the war.
But of course I'm not privy to the information the author of this statement must obviously posses. Perhaps his information would reveal that it could fire nuclear-tipped rounds, a single one of which could destroy a city ?
Oh dear! If one of these semi-literate 'Historians' picks up on that last sentence, it might become fact, and go viral !!!
Well since von Braun applied for membership of the NSDAP in 1937 but later modified his story to claim he was more or less forced to join in 1939 there is once again a tiny, almost imperceptible, glimmer of truth behind the ridiculous story. He may indeed have had more sympathy for the regime than he later wanted to admit. So did a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that they joined the SS or any other party organisations !
It's this incorporation of an element of history into a fantastic story that I find disconcerting about both the type of 'history' being recounted here, and conspiracy theories in general.
Cheers
Steve
It's this incorporation of an element of history into a fantastic story that I find disconcerting about both the type of 'history' being recounted here, and conspiracy theories in general.
Cheers
Steve
- Thread starter
- #132
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Regarding conspiracy theorie - there were quite a few user comments (I simply wouldn't glorify by repeating here) that covered the following keywords:
Illuminati
Zionists
World bankers
U.S. colonialism
U.S. imperialism
Nazis were simply defending themselves
Churchill
Russians won the war without help
And so on.
What's extremely disturbing, is that the majority of these off-base comments and outright misconceptions seen in reader comments on websites and social media, are posted by young people.
Illuminati
Zionists
World bankers
U.S. colonialism
U.S. imperialism
Nazis were simply defending themselves
Churchill
Russians won the war without help
And so on.
What's extremely disturbing, is that the majority of these off-base comments and outright misconceptions seen in reader comments on websites and social media, are posted by young people.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
The really disturbing thing about all of these cases, is that these 'young people' could be the teachers of tomorrow, who then teach the teachers of the next generation. So in a few decades time, it could well be that the general thoughts on WW2 are that it either didn't happen, or the Nazis were good people trying to create a new Europe, with the US and its Allies intervening for financial reasons etc etc and so much other bunk.
And remember, the people who are writing and posting this garbage, actually believe they are right !!
And remember, the people who are writing and posting this garbage, actually believe they are right !!
- Thread starter
- #134
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I agree Terry.
In this day and age, with such easy access to factual data/information, it seems that people are more often falling for conspiracies and bending/distorting fact with fiction.
A while back, there was an article about the Confederate submarine Hunley. It was showing the various stages of conservation and artifacts that had been found along with the crew and other items. I also learned something about the Hunley I hadn't known before...it was not a commissioned ship of the Confederate Navy, therefore it was not the CSS Hunley as I had always thought. It was a ship of the Confederate Army!
Therefore, it's official name was H. L. Hunley
Anyway, at the end of the article, was of course the reader's comments and there was some really good feedback. And as always, you get a large share of stupid rearing it's head as well. I had copied one reader's response (saved to notepad) and had intended to reply but wasn't able to right away. When I went back a day later, it had been deleted by the page's editor because it started a sh!tstorm with several in support and the vast majority tearing the person apart.
As an end result, I still have that person's "history" lesson archived. So prepare to be "schooled"!
In this day and age, with such easy access to factual data/information, it seems that people are more often falling for conspiracies and bending/distorting fact with fiction.
A while back, there was an article about the Confederate submarine Hunley. It was showing the various stages of conservation and artifacts that had been found along with the crew and other items. I also learned something about the Hunley I hadn't known before...it was not a commissioned ship of the Confederate Navy, therefore it was not the CSS Hunley as I had always thought. It was a ship of the Confederate Army!
Therefore, it's official name was H. L. Hunley
Anyway, at the end of the article, was of course the reader's comments and there was some really good feedback. And as always, you get a large share of stupid rearing it's head as well. I had copied one reader's response (saved to notepad) and had intended to reply but wasn't able to right away. When I went back a day later, it had been deleted by the page's editor because it started a sh!tstorm with several in support and the vast majority tearing the person apart.
As an end result, I still have that person's "history" lesson archived. So prepare to be "schooled"!
mikewint
Captain
As Steve said, a grain of truth:
Among the spoils divided up by the Allies was Germany's brain trust. The U.S. made a major effort to recruit German scientists after the war, partly to bolster America's capabilities, and partly to keep them out of Soviet (and even British) hands. President Harry Truman forbade the recruitment of any former member of the Nazi party or "an active supporter of Nazi militarism," so naturally, the intelligence community immediately began targeting former members of the Nazi party, creating false records and often granting our former enemies government security clearance to get around Truman's orders. When the Germans began seeking out scientists to help the war effort, they made sure they were ideologically sound. Loyal Nazis were recorded on the Osenberg List, and put into service. Socialists or those merely suspected of not being loyal to the Reich were ignored at best. After the war, the Osenberg List fell into Allied hands, and it was from this list the U.S. recruited Germany's top minds.
In July 1945 the US War Department made their top-secret project official, circulating a memo titled "Exploitation of German Specialists in Science and Technology in the United States." President Truman was not made aware of the initiative, which was initially known as Operation Overcast. Months later, when the War Department began tagging the falsified files of their most reprehensible Nazi recruits with paper clips as intra-office code — these Nazis were truly to be smuggled in, made known to no other bureaucracies — the program became known as Operation Paperclip.
Once he was made aware of Operation Paperclip and its potential benefits Truman ordered the Department of Commerce to propagandize the advances made by the Nazis, ones that were now making Americans' lives easier, more comfortable.
By January 1946, two months after the Nuremberg trials had begun, there were more than 160 Nazis — many with their families — living and working in the United States.
A good number were housed at a facility called Hilltop in Dayton, Ohio, where many complained they were little more than "caged animals."
The other group — at 115, the largest — was a team of rocket scientists held on Fort Bliss in Texas. Their leader was Wernher von Braun, who, it turned out, really loved America. He was enthralled with the desert and the open-air jeeps driven by Army personnel. He became an evangelical Christian. He was permitted to return to Germany to marry his 18-year-old cousin — von Braun was 46 — and bring her back to the US. If he had one complaint, it was his research budget.
As he later said, while working for the Third Reich "we'd been coddled. Here they were counting pennies."
In November 1946, shortly after 10 Nazis were executed at Nuremberg, news broke that the US had smuggled hundreds of Nazis into the country, and that about 1,000 more were coming. (The final count was close to 1,600.) The government attempted damage control, then message control: These men, so mild-mannered with their silver hair and American sport jackets, had never been members of the Nazi party. The Army disseminated pictures of the men and their families engaged in wholesome outdoor activities, and any reporter requesting an interview had to submit their copy, pre-publication, to the army for approval.
Eleanor Roosevelt publicly decried the program, as did Albert Einstein. By March 1947, Paperclip had generated such lacerating public opinion that General Eisenhower, then the US Army chief of staff, demanded a briefing. It lasted 20 minutes, and upon emerging, Eisenhower said he approved of the project.
To name just a few:
1. Wernher von Braun was a member of various German political organizations, including the SS. He was the chief developer of the V-2 rocket. This rocket was the first ballistic missile ever created.
After Operation Paperclip, Braun became the director of the Development Operations Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. While there, he developed the Jupiter-C rocket, which was used to launch America's first satellite. He was also credited as being instrumental in leading the moon mission.
2. Werner Dahm opposed the Nazis and resisted joining the party until given no other option. His research helped lead to the development of supersonic wind tunnels for the German rocket program, as well as major advancements in the understanding of aerodynamics.
After Paperclip, Dahm made huge contributions to the U.S. space race. He worked on the Saturn V booster rocket, aerothermodynamics, and liquid hydrogen propellant systems. For his work, he became Chief of the Aerophysics Division at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center before becoming Chief Aerodynamicist at the NASA Center.
3. Hermann Kurzweg was a chief researcher and deputy director for the V-2 rocket program. He also helped design supersonic wind tunnels, as well as carrying out aerodynamic research on the anti-aircraft rocket, Wasserfall.
After Paperclip, Kurzweg became a technical director at the Naval Ordinance Laboratory in Maryland, where he continued his aerodynamics and aeroballistics research. Later, he became a chief researcher at NASA, investigating aerodynamics and flight mechanics.
4. Konrad Dannenberg worked closely with von Braun, helping to develop the V-2 rocket. He also helped organize and launch the first object ever to be sent into space by humans.
After Paperclip, Dannenberg continued to work closely on his former subjects. He helped the United States to produce rocket engines and missiles. Eventually, he also became deputy manager of the Saturn Program, which focused on creating engines for launching both satellites and space shuttles into space.
5. Kurt Debus was another member of the SS who helped work on and produce V-2 rockets for the Nazis. He was closely associated with von Braun and was responsible for leading the testing of the V-2 rocket.
After the war, Debus became a prime asset for NASA. His accomplished work on a variety of programs, including launching satellites and the eventual moon mission, led to him becoming the first ever director of the Kennedy Space Center.
6. Walter Dornberger was a Major-General in the army of the Third Reich. He was a Senior Artillery Commander and had personal contact with Hitler. His real passion and skill lay in engineering, and he was foundational in the development of rockets for the Nazis.
After the war, Dornberger continued his engineering research for the U.S. He spent time developing guided missile systems for the U.S. Military, before becoming the vice president of the Bell Aircraft Corporation. At Bell, he developed Bell's Rascal, the first guided nuclear air-to-surface missile.
7. Eberhard Rees was another researcher focused on the development of the V-2 rocket for the Third Reich. Although, reportedly, Rees' passion always lay with space. After the war, Rees managed to follow his passions. He developed ablative heat shields for NASA, and became the Deputy Director of Development Operations for the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. He also directed the lunar roving vehicle program, before becoming the director of the Marshall Space Flight Center.
8. Ernst Stuhlinger started his career as a Nazi soldier. He fought in the Battle of Moscow and the Battle of Stalingrad, before being shifted into research. Eventually, he came to work on guidance systems under von Braun. After Paperclip, Stuhlinger was brought in as director of the Advanced Research Projects Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. He also contributed greatly to the space race, as he was one of the pioneers of electric propulsion. He also worked on the initial phases of the Hubble Telescope.
9. Hubertus Strughold has been accused of participating in extensive human experimentation under the Third Reich, though it has never been proven. The experiments he allegedly oversaw included performing surgery without anesthetic and depriving people of oxygen in vacuum compartments, as well as human experiments related to hypothermia. These experiments were meant to determine the effects of high altitude and supersonic flights on human beings. After the war, Strughold helped to pioneer the field of space medicine. He was vital in the investigation into the effects of weightlessness on people, as well as overseeing the building of space cabin simulators. At NASA, Strughold also played a central role in designing the pressure suit and the onboard life support systems used by Gemini and Apollo astronauts.
Lest you think that the US was alone, there were numerous other operations similar to Paperclip. The Soviets and British undertook similar efforts to capture and/or recruit German personnel (the Soviet equivalent was Operation Osoaviakhim), and all three countries attempted to secure manpower and equipment from Germany's nuclear program. Operation Lusty involved securing Luftwaffe technology. Special Mission V-2 secured 100 V-2 missiles in what would become East Germany, from right under the Soviets' noses. Less well known is Project 63, in which Nazi engineers were placed in jobs with Lockheed and other aerospace firms, even while Americans were being laid off from those same companies.
Among the spoils divided up by the Allies was Germany's brain trust. The U.S. made a major effort to recruit German scientists after the war, partly to bolster America's capabilities, and partly to keep them out of Soviet (and even British) hands. President Harry Truman forbade the recruitment of any former member of the Nazi party or "an active supporter of Nazi militarism," so naturally, the intelligence community immediately began targeting former members of the Nazi party, creating false records and often granting our former enemies government security clearance to get around Truman's orders. When the Germans began seeking out scientists to help the war effort, they made sure they were ideologically sound. Loyal Nazis were recorded on the Osenberg List, and put into service. Socialists or those merely suspected of not being loyal to the Reich were ignored at best. After the war, the Osenberg List fell into Allied hands, and it was from this list the U.S. recruited Germany's top minds.
In July 1945 the US War Department made their top-secret project official, circulating a memo titled "Exploitation of German Specialists in Science and Technology in the United States." President Truman was not made aware of the initiative, which was initially known as Operation Overcast. Months later, when the War Department began tagging the falsified files of their most reprehensible Nazi recruits with paper clips as intra-office code — these Nazis were truly to be smuggled in, made known to no other bureaucracies — the program became known as Operation Paperclip.
Once he was made aware of Operation Paperclip and its potential benefits Truman ordered the Department of Commerce to propagandize the advances made by the Nazis, ones that were now making Americans' lives easier, more comfortable.
By January 1946, two months after the Nuremberg trials had begun, there were more than 160 Nazis — many with their families — living and working in the United States.
A good number were housed at a facility called Hilltop in Dayton, Ohio, where many complained they were little more than "caged animals."
The other group — at 115, the largest — was a team of rocket scientists held on Fort Bliss in Texas. Their leader was Wernher von Braun, who, it turned out, really loved America. He was enthralled with the desert and the open-air jeeps driven by Army personnel. He became an evangelical Christian. He was permitted to return to Germany to marry his 18-year-old cousin — von Braun was 46 — and bring her back to the US. If he had one complaint, it was his research budget.
As he later said, while working for the Third Reich "we'd been coddled. Here they were counting pennies."
In November 1946, shortly after 10 Nazis were executed at Nuremberg, news broke that the US had smuggled hundreds of Nazis into the country, and that about 1,000 more were coming. (The final count was close to 1,600.) The government attempted damage control, then message control: These men, so mild-mannered with their silver hair and American sport jackets, had never been members of the Nazi party. The Army disseminated pictures of the men and their families engaged in wholesome outdoor activities, and any reporter requesting an interview had to submit their copy, pre-publication, to the army for approval.
Eleanor Roosevelt publicly decried the program, as did Albert Einstein. By March 1947, Paperclip had generated such lacerating public opinion that General Eisenhower, then the US Army chief of staff, demanded a briefing. It lasted 20 minutes, and upon emerging, Eisenhower said he approved of the project.
To name just a few:
1. Wernher von Braun was a member of various German political organizations, including the SS. He was the chief developer of the V-2 rocket. This rocket was the first ballistic missile ever created.
After Operation Paperclip, Braun became the director of the Development Operations Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. While there, he developed the Jupiter-C rocket, which was used to launch America's first satellite. He was also credited as being instrumental in leading the moon mission.
2. Werner Dahm opposed the Nazis and resisted joining the party until given no other option. His research helped lead to the development of supersonic wind tunnels for the German rocket program, as well as major advancements in the understanding of aerodynamics.
After Paperclip, Dahm made huge contributions to the U.S. space race. He worked on the Saturn V booster rocket, aerothermodynamics, and liquid hydrogen propellant systems. For his work, he became Chief of the Aerophysics Division at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center before becoming Chief Aerodynamicist at the NASA Center.
3. Hermann Kurzweg was a chief researcher and deputy director for the V-2 rocket program. He also helped design supersonic wind tunnels, as well as carrying out aerodynamic research on the anti-aircraft rocket, Wasserfall.
After Paperclip, Kurzweg became a technical director at the Naval Ordinance Laboratory in Maryland, where he continued his aerodynamics and aeroballistics research. Later, he became a chief researcher at NASA, investigating aerodynamics and flight mechanics.
4. Konrad Dannenberg worked closely with von Braun, helping to develop the V-2 rocket. He also helped organize and launch the first object ever to be sent into space by humans.
After Paperclip, Dannenberg continued to work closely on his former subjects. He helped the United States to produce rocket engines and missiles. Eventually, he also became deputy manager of the Saturn Program, which focused on creating engines for launching both satellites and space shuttles into space.
5. Kurt Debus was another member of the SS who helped work on and produce V-2 rockets for the Nazis. He was closely associated with von Braun and was responsible for leading the testing of the V-2 rocket.
After the war, Debus became a prime asset for NASA. His accomplished work on a variety of programs, including launching satellites and the eventual moon mission, led to him becoming the first ever director of the Kennedy Space Center.
6. Walter Dornberger was a Major-General in the army of the Third Reich. He was a Senior Artillery Commander and had personal contact with Hitler. His real passion and skill lay in engineering, and he was foundational in the development of rockets for the Nazis.
After the war, Dornberger continued his engineering research for the U.S. He spent time developing guided missile systems for the U.S. Military, before becoming the vice president of the Bell Aircraft Corporation. At Bell, he developed Bell's Rascal, the first guided nuclear air-to-surface missile.
7. Eberhard Rees was another researcher focused on the development of the V-2 rocket for the Third Reich. Although, reportedly, Rees' passion always lay with space. After the war, Rees managed to follow his passions. He developed ablative heat shields for NASA, and became the Deputy Director of Development Operations for the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. He also directed the lunar roving vehicle program, before becoming the director of the Marshall Space Flight Center.
8. Ernst Stuhlinger started his career as a Nazi soldier. He fought in the Battle of Moscow and the Battle of Stalingrad, before being shifted into research. Eventually, he came to work on guidance systems under von Braun. After Paperclip, Stuhlinger was brought in as director of the Advanced Research Projects Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. He also contributed greatly to the space race, as he was one of the pioneers of electric propulsion. He also worked on the initial phases of the Hubble Telescope.
9. Hubertus Strughold has been accused of participating in extensive human experimentation under the Third Reich, though it has never been proven. The experiments he allegedly oversaw included performing surgery without anesthetic and depriving people of oxygen in vacuum compartments, as well as human experiments related to hypothermia. These experiments were meant to determine the effects of high altitude and supersonic flights on human beings. After the war, Strughold helped to pioneer the field of space medicine. He was vital in the investigation into the effects of weightlessness on people, as well as overseeing the building of space cabin simulators. At NASA, Strughold also played a central role in designing the pressure suit and the onboard life support systems used by Gemini and Apollo astronauts.
Lest you think that the US was alone, there were numerous other operations similar to Paperclip. The Soviets and British undertook similar efforts to capture and/or recruit German personnel (the Soviet equivalent was Operation Osoaviakhim), and all three countries attempted to secure manpower and equipment from Germany's nuclear program. Operation Lusty involved securing Luftwaffe technology. Special Mission V-2 secured 100 V-2 missiles in what would become East Germany, from right under the Soviets' noses. Less well known is Project 63, in which Nazi engineers were placed in jobs with Lockheed and other aerospace firms, even while Americans were being laid off from those same companies.
- Thread starter
- #137
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Confederate's Hunley was the first successful (depends on how you look at it) military submarine that mounted an attack and sank it's target, the USS Housatonic. Sadly, it sank with all hands during the attack.Again a grain of truth. The first successful submarine we know of was indeed English (not British at that time) though it was designed by a Dutchman.
What that has to do with the American Civil War I have no idea
Cheers
Steve
It's layout, features and wartime attack are considered by many to to be the first modern military submarine.
Well that 'success' certainly does depend how you look at it
A successful submarine is by definition a craft that can operate under water and various types, by various nations, were tested in the first half of the 17th century.
Cheers
Steve
mikewint
Captain
And I have it Steve. Werner was ever the pragmatist no matter who held the reins of power.
In March 1945 seeing the end of the war was near and the Germans loosing, he conscripted two friends to stash his most important research out in an abandoned mine; when Germany lost, von Braun said, he'd use these documents to broker a new life in the United States.
He knew that no matter what atrocities were eventually discovered, no major world power would refuse the technological advances made by the Nazis — nor could they afford not to know how to combat them, vaccinate against them, outpace them.
As of May 1945, Werner von Braun was No. 1 on America's list for desired Nazi rocket scientists. When he surrendered to US forces on May 2 — having voluntarily decamped from a luxury ski resort in the Alps — von Braun and his colleagues were treated to a hearty breakfast of eggs, coffee and bread, then given freshly made beds in which to sleep.
"I did not expect to be kicked in the teeth," von Braun later told an American reporter. "The V-2 was something we had and you didn't have. Naturally, you wanted to know all about it."
In March 1945 seeing the end of the war was near and the Germans loosing, he conscripted two friends to stash his most important research out in an abandoned mine; when Germany lost, von Braun said, he'd use these documents to broker a new life in the United States.
He knew that no matter what atrocities were eventually discovered, no major world power would refuse the technological advances made by the Nazis — nor could they afford not to know how to combat them, vaccinate against them, outpace them.
As of May 1945, Werner von Braun was No. 1 on America's list for desired Nazi rocket scientists. When he surrendered to US forces on May 2 — having voluntarily decamped from a luxury ski resort in the Alps — von Braun and his colleagues were treated to a hearty breakfast of eggs, coffee and bread, then given freshly made beds in which to sleep.
"I did not expect to be kicked in the teeth," von Braun later told an American reporter. "The V-2 was something we had and you didn't have. Naturally, you wanted to know all about it."
