How crazy is the Catholic Church

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting. No matter how many times I keep pointing out that the Church did not say anthing about the girl being guilty of anything, you folks keep insisting that it and I say she is! Can any of you get past your anti-Catholic prejudices and READ, then THINK????

CD

I am not saying that you personally are saying so, I am saying the Church said so.

If the church did not think so, then why is the church having everyone (minus the girl apparently) involved excommunicated?

Granted the Church is saying that it is not her fault, but they are saying that the doctors and mother are guilty of breaking gods law. They saved the girls life. The girls life is more important in this case, and the church does not have the right to say otherwise.

By the way I am not Anti-Catholic thank you. I do not agree with the Catholic church, but I am not prejudice against it! Thank you very much!

 

[Colin1]

...and on the subject of religion...
from one end of the age range to the other

A bit harsh, methinks

Saudis order 40 lashes for elderly woman for mingling - CNN.com

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

...and on the subject of religion...
from one end of the age range to the other

A bit harsh, methinks

Saudis order 40 lashes for elderly woman for mingling - CNN.com

Love how that works, getting deported and whipped because you had two unrelated men in your home.

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

I feel sad for the little girl, what she went through and what she had to give up (I hope the ba@@@@@ who did that to here gets fried). Personally, that bishops should have kept his bloody mouth shut.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I'm a Catholic, and this is a messy horrid case. The Most guilty of all is that child rapist, may they enclose him in a prison for life, as I doubt Brazil has the death penalty. I think a Judge would be justified doing it if they did allow, that stepfather is sick.

Only thing the doctors could have done if the girl was too young to come to term and give birth the normal way was to have a caesarean operation performed on her. Of course if they were forced to take the babies out early, it might kill the babies as well, and in that case I don't know if the Bishop would approve of that or not?

I suspect if the babies were taken out via a Caesarean, (even a few months early) and given life support as soon as they were out of the womb, I imagine the Bishop would not have excommunicated them, even if the babies died afterward from being born prematurely.

Another thing is that the girl may very well have had a miscarriage, and the babies would have died naturally. Often if a womb is too young to support a baby in there, as likely her womb was, then the babies would not survive.

I understand the terrible quandary of the threat to the girls life, and that keeping a pregnancy in someone that young could be dangerous, and I can understand why someone people think the Catholic Church is just being cruel to the girl. Basically the Bishop was asking the family of the girl to take a risk, and not have an abortion, and let God decide what would happen to the children inside.

I know the thought that those children would have a rapist father is dis-gusting to many, and the thought they might grow up like him even worse. And even adoption for the two babies would be hard for a mother to go through, but basically the Catholic Church holds the two babies are innocent, and that they should not be killed.

My mother had to have a Caesarean operation to have my, and while the circumstances were completely differant, she was in her 20's and married, I'm still grateful to her for taking that risk.

This case is terrible, a nine year old forced to become a mother because of a fiendish stepfathers, and perhaps the Bishop has handled the matter the best way he could.

I hope some sort of peace can be achieved in that family, and that the girl can find some peace herself, even though a terrible thing happened in her life. I hope the Stepfather is punished, and not let out on the streets again.

One last thing, I'm not saying the remaining family has to absolutely go back to the Catholic Church, It's their decision to leave if they choose to feel the Church was too harsh to them. I don't think the Catholic Church will change it's position, but I do think if the family chooses to stay in the Catholic Church, it would eventually lift the excommunication ban on the family of the girl.

It's a terrible case, that's all I can say. Wish it never happened.

 

[Freebird]

I'm a Catholic, and this is a messy horrid case.

Only thing the doctors could have done if the girl was too young to come to term and give birth the normal way was to have a caesarean operation performed on her. Of course if they were forced to take the babies out early, it might kill the babies as well, and in that case I don't know if the Bishop would approve of that or not?

I suspect if the babies were taken out via a Caesarean, (even a few months early) and given life support as soon as they were out of the womb, I imagine the Bishop would not have excommunicated them, even if the babies died afterward from being born prematurely.

Problem is that she would need to carry the infant to at least 6.5 or 7 months, and a 9 year old girl's body just can't do that - especially with twins. There is still some chance that she will die, and there might be 70% - 80% chance that she will be infertile afterwards. Is it fair to ask this of the girl?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Problem is that she would need to carry the infant to at least 6.5 or 7 months, and a 9 year old girl's body just can't do that - especially with twins. There is still some chance that she will die, and there might be 70% - 80% chance that she will be infertile afterwards. Is it fair to ask this of the girl?

Ditto.

It is not that hard to understand, so I do not understand why the church can not understand this.

 

[magnocain]

This is horrible situation any way you look at it. It should have never happened.
This was a difficult choice either way, take two lives, or maybe take three. I cannot contemplate this horrible situation. I think that the bishop went overboard, but if he let her have the abortion he would be been called a hypocrite. Abortion is murder, but this is exactly the situation that puts it in the morally gray.

 

[mkloby]

Can any of you get past your anti-Catholic prejudices and READ, then THINK????

CD

I am honestly shocked at some of the comments here. If some of you could get past blind hatred of the Catholic Church, you might be interested in reading this article. While not the same case, it might help you to understand the Church's teachings on such a subject.

Or maybe it fits into your own view more easy and convenient to simply not understand and hate?

CUF.org :: Catholics United for the Faith

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am honestly shocked at some of the comments here. If some of you could get past blind hatred of the Catholic Church, you might be interested in reading this article. While not the same case, it might help you to understand the Church's teachings on such a subject.

Or maybe it fits into your own view more easy and convenient to simply not understand and hate?

CUF.org :: Catholics United for the Faith

Matt I do not think that there is a blind hate for the Church. Myself for one do not have anything against the church overall. I myself am a Christian (not Catholic though...), I just do not agree with the Church's stance on this case.

Just because someone is a Christian, does that mean they have to agree with everything the Church does or says?

 

[mkloby]

Matt I do not think that there is a blind hate for the Church. Myself for one do not have anything against the church overall. I myself am a Christian (not Catholic though...), I just do not agree with the Church's stance on this case.

I wasn't referring to your post, Chris. I don't think, though, that this decision proves the Vatican is a corrupt state. I do think, though, that there is widespread animosity for the Catholic Church (perhaps hate is too strong a word).

This situation definitely poses a very difficult moral dilemma, there is no doubt about that. But instead of any debate about the situation, the right of the unborn twins to live, how far along they could physically be carried before it posed a threat to the girl, the mental and physical pain and suffered caused to the girl and that would result from continuing the pregnancy, etc. - some jump straight to the Catholic Church is crazy, it is full of corrupt wankers, comparing it to a cult... In reality, it is calling me a corrupt wanker that is a member of a cult. It's the same as if comments similar to that were made about any other certain nation, race, or religion.

Not to stray too far, but I just get really tired of how it is acceptable to bash and demean Christianity and Catholicism, and other religions must be treated with respect. This is also the general attitude held by democratic party here, and I'm more than sick of it.

Just because someone is a Christian, does that mean they have to agree with everything the Church does or says?

"Christian" is a very broad term encompassing billions of people! There's A LOT that Christians of all denominations disagree with the Catholic Church about - it's their right. As far as Christians across the board are concerned, I think we should all focus on what we have in common (which is an extraordinary amount), rather than focus on our differences.

 

[Soren]

What I will say is that I believe in god, but I don't care too much about the church. A priest is a human being just like you me, and I don't believe he is better than you me or in better contact with god. A priest however should try his best to be a role model for the teachings of his religion, and if he deviates as fundamentally as the priest in discussion, well then he needs to be stripped of his position and kicked in jail.

And as for abortion, if a pregnancy is the result of rape then abortion is completely OK by me! If it was a case of getting pregnate on purpose and then a change of heart later then I believe it to be a moral grey area unless the fetus is older than 3 months, then I think the baby should get every chance to live.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not to stray too far, but I just get really tired of how it is acceptable to bash and demean Christianity and Catholicism, and other religions must be treated with respect. This is also the general attitude held by democratic party here, and I'm more than sick of it.

I hear you my friend, and I agree with you.

 

[mkloby]

What I will say is that I believe in god, but I don't care too much about the church. A priest is a human being just like you me, and I don't believe he is better than you me or in better contact with god. A priest however should try his best to be a role model for the teachings of his religion, and if he deviates as fundamentally as the priest in discussion, well then he needs to be stripped of his position and kicked in jail.

How did this priest "deviate," and kicked in jail? Charged with what?

And as for abortion, if a pregnancy is the result of rape then abortion is completely OK by me! If it was a case of getting pregnate on purpose and then a change of heart later then I believe it to be a moral grey area unless the fetus is older than 3 months, then I think the baby should get every chance to live.

Why three months old, out of curiosity?

 

[Soren]

How did this priest "deviate," and kicked in jail? Charged with what?

lol I didn't read the story through, I mistakenly assumed the priest raped the girl. I've heard all those stories about the alterboys you know, so I thought I already knew the beginning of this story. My mistake, duh!

Why three months old, out of curiosity?

They say that is where the part of the brain which controls the concious starts to develop.

 

[BombTaxi]

As one of the people who heavily criticised the Catholic church whenthis thread started, I feel I should clarify my position a little...

I am not driven by a hatred of the Catholic church - I simply find some of their views bizarre and out of step with the times in which we live. As I am a liberal by inclination, and the Catholic church, as an institution, is strongly conservative, I suppose that is no surprise.

But I do not single Catholics, or even Christians, out for special criticism. After all, the three great religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are tied by strong conceptual and even scriptural links, and many of their key narratives share timeframes and actors, although these connections are often forgotten in the present geopolitical climate. In that sense, I deplore the Christan 'eye for an eye', the violence of Muslim Sharia law, and the use of capital punishment in secular law equally. I find some elements of Protestant theology just as alien as some in Catholic theology. I will however admit that I find some of the actions of the present Pope to betray a return of ultra-conservatism in the Catholic church, and it does concern me that such a globally influential organisation has a leader who tacitly, if unintentionally, endorses the views of a holocaust-denying misogynist who his predecessor excluded from the church as a sign that such views held no place in the Catholic religion. That doesn't mean I hate Catholics though - I am just concerned that such a powerful opinion-forming body sends out a message that such views are welcome within it's higher echelons...

 

[mkloby]

As one of the people who heavily criticised the Catholic church whenthis thread started, I feel I should clarify my position a little...

I am not driven by a hatred of the Catholic church - I simply find some of their views bizarre and out of step with the times in which we live. As I am a liberal by inclination, and the Catholic church, as an institution, is strongly conservative, I suppose that is no surprise.

Perhaps morality is timeless, and should not change with the times?

But I do not single Catholics, or even Christians, out for special criticism. After all, the three great religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are tied by strong conceptual and even scriptural links, and many of their key narratives share timeframes and actors, although these connections are often forgotten in the present geopolitical climate.

This is true.

In that sense, I deplore the Christan 'eye for an eye', the violence of Muslim Sharia law, and the use of capital punishment in secular law equally.

Did not Jesus speak out against "eye for an eye?" The Catholic Church does not support capital punishment either.

I find some elements of Protestant theology just as alien as some in Catholic theology. I will however admit that I find some of the actions of the present Pope to betray a return of ultra-conservatism in the Catholic church, and it does concern me that such a globally influential organisation has a leader who tacitly, if unintentionally, endorses the views of a holocaust-denying misogynist who his predecessor excluded from the church as a sign that such views held no place in the Catholic religion. That doesn't mean I hate Catholics though - I am just concerned that such a powerful opinion-forming body sends out a message that such views are welcome within it's higher echelons...

Just off the top - ultra-conservative to you is probably moderate-conservative to me! Let's correct a few things. When did the Pope endorse the view that the holocaust did not occur, or misogyny either for that matter? Pope John Paul II excommunicated the individual you are referring to, Richard Williamson, over illegitimate consecration as a bishop by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, not due to personal belief over the holocaust. I do agree with you, however, about the external message that was received by revoking the excommunication.

 

[Maestro]

Okay, I haven't read all of the thread but as a 1st class Atheist I think I should speak out and toss in my two cents.

First of all, I think it is better I clarify my "religious background"... I was born in the Catholic religion, went to a public elementary school (right next to a church with a few nuns as teachers). Carried on with the catholic religion in high school until I first realized all the crap those priest did in the name of God... And all the "forgiveness" the different popes showed to those "black robe criminals".

I'm so sick of this crap that I even thought about turning Protestant (even though I'm now Atheistic since i'm about 15) just to make sure no one could ever link me to the pope's delire.

What happened to that little girl is plain dis-gust-ing. But let me aswer your question by a few things that happened around here (Province of Québec)...

In the 50s-60s, an orphanage (which were all held by the Catholic Church, back in the day) decided to "convert" to an ophanage for mentally-ill kids. It was a trick aimed at getting money from the Provincial gouvernment, who was giving an extra amount of money for every "mad" kids living there. The director of the orphanage took the file of most of his kids and falcified them. So the direction received money from the friendly gouvernment (led by Maurice Duplessis) and the kids received unnecessary treatments. The Catholic Church got in a civil lawsuit in the 90s and those kids are now known as "The Children of Duplessis".

In the 60s, two priest invited a a boy to a fishing trip at a shack near a lake. The boy was mollested and raped. When he later complained to the Archbishop of Québec, the said Archbishop covered his friends.

In the 90s, a priest was found guilty of rape in France. It was later found that he was earlier sentenced for two other sex-crimes in the Province of Québec in the 60s-70s... And he was already a priest back in the day !

Somewhere between 2005 and 2008, a priest was sentenced to two years of jail for rape. Like the old man was phisically sick, the Church offered to send him in a monastery. The juge accepted. A few weeks later a roporter went to the said monastery and interviewed him... He was living in a nice building, with a nice room and a great backyard with a garden.

When interviewed on TV about the first and last story listed above and the pedophiliac priests being protected by the church by sending them overseas, the Archbishop of Montréal said : "I don't wanna answer that question... You know Jesus told us to "turn the other cheek"."

Hah ! Yeah, right ! "If he strikes you on your left cheek, turn him the right cheek... If he strikes you on the right cheek, introduce him to your cousin who is a made-man of the Russian mafia !"

And what about all that recent crap about the pope in Africa telling to not use condoms even though there is a huge epidemia of AIDS over there ? Is he insane or simply a moron ?

In my book, the Catholic Church has become a shelter for pedophiles... Sending them to freshly-new territories when they get caught by the local police.

Anyway, it was my opinion and I share it with you.

 

[Lucky13]

 

[Lucky13]

The more I think about this I remember a program Discovery earlier this year. In this program it was stated that the Catholic Church and Vatican, new about the holocaust, but had made an agreement with the Germans not to say and do anything. But as it turned out, the Pope that had made this agreement died under the war and when the Pope that followed him tired to do something about it, he was murdered.

Is this true or is it just another of those WWII conspiracies?