How crazy is the Catholic Church

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

The Pope you mention that died shortly after becoming Pope is John XXII. Some think he may have been poisoned, but there is no certain evidence of that. The official cause of his death was peritonitis.

Pope Pius XII did shelter Jews during WWII, and was not the friend of Hitler as some books insinuate. He did not die during WWII, but lived untill 1958.

 

[Lucky13]

Thanks SW! Remember watching the program and thinking WTF!

 

[BombTaxi]

Matt,

I think there are some keystones of morality which are timeless - the 'Golden Rule' is one, for sure. However, morality cannot stand still. There are new challenges to be met - nuclear weapons, genetic modification, HIV... the list goes on. A system of morality that does not adapt to frame responses to these situations lives in danger of becoming irrelevant. HIV is a case in point - the Catholic Church's unbending opposition to the use of contraceptives has been a massive obstacle to controlling the spread of this awful disease - one could say, without too much hyperbole, that the Catholic policy is a potential death sentence for believers. It is cases like this where dogma needs to make way for a truly caring and compassionate ethics, IMHO.

I am aware that the Catholic Church does not specifically support capital punishment, the example was the first one I could think of to illustrate my point about no picking on Christianity for it's own sake. Not a very good example though...

Finally, I am aware that the Pope has never personally or explicitly condoned Holocaust Denial or misogyny - but his actions in re-admitting Williamson to the faith send out a message that he does. The Pope is a smart guy and surely realises this... So maybe he should define the position once and for all. And I would similarly suspect that while John Paul II excommunicated Williamson on a technical point, he knew exactly what the act would say about the church stance on his views...

 

[mkloby]

Maestro - clearly you cannot help yourself. That view of the Catholic Church as a whole is as ill founded as smearing the entire American, German, or Japanese people for the actions of the government in the past, or as associating the actions of some Muslim clerics to all of Islam.

The sexual abuse scandal is a terrible thing, and deeply upsetting. It's difficult to identify a rooted cause for it within the Church. A search of sex offenders of my own zip code returns dozens of offenders. There are caes breaking out all the time of sexual abuse by teachers, Rabbis, Mormons, etc.

The individuals in the Church did not handle sexual abuse cases properly in the past, which is acknowledged by the difference in which accusations and allegations are handled.

Your Russian mafia comment is simply ridiculous.

As far as the Pope's comment regarding condoms - it was purposefully put out of context, and it seems that you don't mind that at all, since it fits your hostility toward the Church. Relying upon condoms is not going to bring about the end of HIV. People will not always use condoms when they have them, they'll forget them, and do what they will anyway. Distributing condoms only serves to promote a type of lifestyle that contributes to the spreading of HIV.

 

[fly boy]

Hello folks, at first i dont want to offend in his religious behaviour, but maybe you have read or seen on TV the story about the 9 year old girl who was raped through the last 3 years and now she was pregnant with twins. The twins were aborted in a clinic otherwise the girl would suffer and die.
Now a crazy bishop excomunicated the girl, her family and the the people who made the abortion, and he said he had to this and he ( the catholic church ) had to save the life of the unborn twins instead of the mother.
How crazy is this ?

A 9 year old girl who was raped will be a second time treated in a bad way by her church. For my opinion this is darkest medieaval age thinking.

In my opinion this bishop should shut up his face and think before he says such nonsense.
It can be discussed if abortion is the right way but not if a child is involved or if the femals person becomes pregnant by rape; than is only her decision and not a dicision of a court or the church.

greets

Thomas

i'am sorry but you can get a 9yr old pregent and for the bishop shut the F**k up and let them do this

 

[Soren]

Hehe, I love how the Athiests say they want peace acceptance and then they go on with a complete lack of tolerance for anyone religious, mocking them for being so. Talk about contradicting yourself..

 

[Maestro]

Hehe, I love how the Athiests say they want peace acceptance and then they go on with a complete lack of tolerance for anyone religious, mocking them for being so. Talk about contradicting yourself..

Uh... I never claimed I wanted "peace and acceptance". I personnally think that religion (any religion) is a poison. A poison used by twisted leaders (pope, imams, gurus or what ever) to get what they want. (Power, money, control over their neighbors... and war over other religions.)

If you wanna believe in God (or Allah or what ever the hell you call him), then it's fine with me. However, when someone does something "because the spiritual leader said it", he becomes the leader's weapon. And that is dangerous.

But as I said, you can whoreship God, Jesus, Allah, Buddah or even a sheep if you want... I don't care.

 

[Maestro]

Maestro - clearly you cannot help yourself. That view of the Catholic Church as a whole is as ill founded as smearing the entire American, German, or Japanese people for the actions of the government in the past, or as associating the actions of some Muslim clerics to all of Islam.

The sexual abuse scandal is a terrible thing, and deeply upsetting. It's difficult to identify a rooted cause for it within the Church. A search of sex offenders of my own zip code returns dozens of offenders. There are caes breaking out all the time of sexual abuse by teachers, Rabbis, Mormons, etc.

The individuals in the Church did not handle sexual abuse cases properly in the past, which is acknowledged by the difference in which accusations and allegations are handled.

Sexcrimes within the Church are still handled that way, my friend. Re-read my post, you'll see one or two stories that happened in the late 90s and in 2005-2008. And they were only a few exemples. If you dig a little deeper, you'll find at least one cause of sexcrime commited by a catholic priest in Canada every year since the late 50s.

... And most of them were covered up by either Archbishops, Cardinals or even the Pope himself.

Your Russian mafia comment is simply ridiculous.

Of course it is ! It was intented as a sarcastic comment... Now I'll explain the joke : if you introduce the bastard to you Russian-mafiosi cousin, then you must assume that he's gonna beat the living sh*t out of him, right ? Now, you get my joke ? Of course, you're not forced to find it funny.

As far as the Pope's comment regarding condoms - it was purposefully put out of context, and it seems that you don't mind that at all, since it fits your hostility toward the Church. Relying upon condoms is not going to bring about the end of HIV.

Of course I'm hostile to the Church, I've always been hostile to any religion trying to control my thoughts.

And of course the use of condom will not bring an end to AIDS, but it can greatly help to reduce the cases of HIV infections.

People will not always use condoms when they have them, they'll forget them, and do what they will anyway. Distributing condoms only serves to promote a type of lifestyle that contributes to the spreading of HIV.

Unfortunately, it is now my turn to call that comment ridiculous. If we give condoms to peoples, it can make them think twice before screwing without using a type of protection. Having sex when you use a condom is in no way dangerous.

While, to some extends, having unprotected sex with your wife (or husband) is unsafe. Because you don't know if he/she cheated on you recently... And if it did happen, if he/she used a condom. You have to thrust him/her.

So all that "no sex before wedding" story that we can hear in every religion is just a load of bullsh*t. If your married with your wife for 20 years (even though you were both virgin at wedding), it doesn't prevent you from getting a VD since your wife could... erhm... "look somewhere else" afterward.

So as you can see, there is only one way to control the spreading of VDs (not only AIDS, but all VDs) : education and protection. Religion won't help anyone in any way.

 

[Lucky13]

What are your opinionsd on this then?
F.C.F.C.'s page
The Vatican'
Nopedo - Other crimes of the Catholic Church

Is ANY of it true?!

 

[lesofprimus]

I could go into my little story on my religious beliefs, but it would mirror thousands and thousands of similar stories on how someone lost their faith, but no one should be picking on Maestros choice of religious reflection, nor find his displeasure at the acts of the Catholic Church insulting...

He is entitled to his opinion of God just like I am and Eric is and Matt is.... To have faith in SOMETHING is still faith, and thats what it boils down to.... In my opinion, the severely over-driven religions are doing nothing more than trying to control its followers to the testaments and decrees of ancient times....

Its just not realistic anymore to act and behave the same way that religious supporters were taught 2000 years ago.... Like everything else, it should evolve...

Ive read this entire thread, including the links, and I still dont see how anyone can defend the Church in this instance... I wonder if the rapist was a Priest or a Deacon would such a display have happened???

Confess and ur un-excommunicated??? What would a 9 year old girl have to confess about her rape??? That the skirt she was wearing was too short?? It wasnt her choice to get raped, nor was it her choice to get the abortion....

So she should go into confession and lie, just so she can get to eat her nasty tasting cardboard wafers???

Question tho, the Priests and religious types that are convicted/busted on their child rape/homosexual conquests, do they get excommunicated as well, and if so, do they get forgiveness if they confess they are scumbag motherfu*kers that took advantage of the innocent children of their Faith???

 

[Maestro]

What are your opinionsd on this then?
F.C.F.C.'s page
The Vatican'
Nopedo - Other crimes of the Catholic Church

Is ANY of it true?!

Are you talking to me or to BombTaxi ? Because I think he is the one who brought out the "Holocaust card"...

But if you want my advice, then... well... I don't quite know. It seems pretty believable... So it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

All I can tell you is that Catholic priests over here (Province of Québec) were encouraging peoples to pray for Hitler... To make sure he succeeded in destroying the "comunist empire".

Also, the Vatican always wanted to kill other religions or nations with a different line of thoughts and had some "black ops" going on all the time... Just remember the Templars back in the Crusades : foreign knights (mostly German) being hired by the pope to take Jerusalem.

And what about the (Catholic) Irish priests encouraging the revolution against a (Protestant) English King/Queen throughout the 20th century ? Or the Vatican encouraging an Anglo-Spanish war to remove Elizabeth I (a Protestant) from the English throne ?

I'm sure there is more, but that's all I can think of right now.

 

[Maestro]

I could go into my little story on my religious beliefs, but it would mirror thousands and thousands of similar stories on how someone lost their faith, but no one should be picking on Maestros choice of religious reflection, nor find his displeasure at the acts of the Catholic Church insulting...

He is entitled to his opinion of God just like I am and Eric is and Matt is.... To have faith in SOMETHING is still faith, and thats what it boils down to.... In my opinion, the severely over-driven religions are doing nothing more than trying to control its followers to the testaments and decrees of ancient times....

Thanks for your support, Les.

Its just not realistic anymore to act and behave the same way that religious supporters were taught 2000 years ago.... Like everything else, it should evolve...

Ive read this entire thread, including the links, and I still dont see how anyone can defend the Church in this instance... I wonder if the rapist was a Priest or a Deacon would such a display have happened???

Confess and ur un-excommunicated??? What would a 9 year old girl have to confess about her rape??? That the skirt she was wearing was too short?? It wasnt her choice to get raped, nor was it her choice to get the abortion....

So she should go into confession and lie, just so she can get to eat her nasty tasting cardboard wafers???

Question tho, the Priests and religious types that are convicted/busted on their child rape/homosexual conquests, do they get excommunicated as well, and if so, do they get forgiveness if they confess they are scumbag motherfu*kers that took advantage of the innocent children of their Faith???

Damn right... And a damned good question...

 

[Lucky13]

Was just general question Maestro, not really directed at anyone. Isn't also the Catholic Church the only religion with a HQ or what you want to call it? Can't remember that the Protestant, Jewish etc. religions have anything remotely similar to the Vatican, maybe I'm wrong...

 

[BombTaxi]

The German Catholic Church certainly did much to co-operate with Hitler, as Catholicism and National Socialism shared a middle-class conservative support base and also shared the objective of crushing international Marxism/Bolshevism. On the other hand, I personally believe that had the Catholic Church been able to form a truer estimate of the evil Hitler was capable of, they would not have thrown such massive support behind his cause. Lets not forget that for European conservatives, the Nazi Recih, prior to 1939, was a bulwark against the Soviets, and Hitler seen as a leader of anti-Bolshevik resistance, with wide support from the conservative elements of European society. It wasn't until WWII actually started that he was really seen for the evil that he truly was.

Lucky, the Vatican is unique in it's position and function within a major religion. I believe it's existence can be attributed to the role of Catholic Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire in the early centuries AD. Much of what is now the Vatican emerged during that period as the apparatus of a state religion which worked hard to crush it's competitors, chiefly paganism and the old Roman cults. Catholicism certainly owes it's massive influence to it's time as the official religion of the world's greatest empire, which set it upon a pedestal which no other faith could dislodge it from.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I could go into my little story on my religious beliefs, but it would mirror thousands and thousands of similar stories on how someone lost their faith, but no one should be picking on Maestros choice of religious reflection, nor find his displeasure at the acts of the Catholic Church insulting...

He is entitled to his opinion of God just like I am and Eric is and Matt is.... To have faith in SOMETHING is still faith, and thats what it boils down to.... In my opinion, the severely over-driven religions are doing nothing more than trying to control its followers to the testaments and decrees of ancient times....

Its just not realistic anymore to act and behave the same way that religious supporters were taught 2000 years ago.... Like everything else, it should evolve...

Ive read this entire thread, including the links, and I still dont see how anyone can defend the Church in this instance... I wonder if the rapist was a Priest or a Deacon would such a display have happened???

Confess and ur un-excommunicated??? What would a 9 year old girl have to confess about her rape??? That the skirt she was wearing was too short?? It wasnt her choice to get raped, nor was it her choice to get the abortion....

So she should go into confession and lie, just so she can get to eat her nasty tasting cardboard wafers???

Question tho, the Priests and religious types that are convicted/busted on their child rape/homosexual conquests, do they get excommunicated as well, and if so, do they get forgiveness if they confess they are scumbag motherfu*kers that took advantage of the innocent children of their Faith???

Got to agree with most of what you said here.

That is why I have faith in god, but I do not support the church it self very much. But then again I do not believe that a man in a church has to tell me how to have faith in god.

Was just general question Maestro, not really directed at anyone. Isn't also the Catholic Church the only religion with a HQ or what you want to call it? Can't remember that the Protestant, Jewish etc. religions have anything remotely similar to the Vatican, maybe I'm wrong...

No most of them have some form of a headquarters. The Vatican however is the most prominent.

 

[Lucky13]

I think that you don't have to go to church to believe in God. I'm of the opinion that everyone can believe in God or any other higher power in their own personal way.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think that you don't have to go to church to believe in God. I'm of the opinion that everyone can believe in God or any other higher power in their own personal way.

Ditto!

 

[mkloby]

Sexcrimes within the Church are still handled that way, my friend. Re-read my post, you'll see one or two stories that happened in the late 90s and in 2005-2008. And they were only a few exemples. If you dig a little deeper, you'll find at least one cause of sexcrime commited by a catholic priest in Canada every year since the late 50s.

... And most of them were covered up by either Archbishops, Cardinals or even the Pope himself.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I was referring to ordered engagement with local authorities regarding an accusation. I thought that was clear.

And of course the use of condom will not bring an end to AIDS, but it can greatly help to reduce the cases of HIV infections.

Unfortunately, it is now my turn to call that comment ridiculous. If we give condoms to peoples, it can make them think twice before screwing without using a type of protection. Having sex when you use a condom is in no way dangerous.

While, to some extends, having unprotected sex with your wife (or husband) is unsafe. Because you don't know if he/she cheated on you recently... And if it did happen, if he/she used a condom. You have to thrust him/her.

So all that "no sex before wedding" story that we can hear in every religion is just a load of bullsh*t. If your married with your wife for 20 years (even though you were both virgin at wedding), it doesn't prevent you from getting a VD since your wife could... erhm... "look somewhere else" afterward.

So as you can see, there is only one way to control the spreading of VDs (not only AIDS, but all VDs) : education and protection. Religion won't help anyone in any way.

All I can say is that there is another aspect of controlling HIV that you, and many others, are completely missing, and this is a major shame - the behavoiral aspect.

But if you want my advice, then... well... I don't quite know. It seems pretty believable... So it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

Shouldn't the lack of sources strike as suspect?

All I can tell you is that Catholic priests over here (Province of Québec) were encouraging peoples to pray for Hitler... To make sure he succeeded in destroying the "comunist empire".

Can you really validate a statement like that?

Also, the Vatican always wanted to kill other religions or nations with a different line of thoughts and had some "black ops" going on all the time... Just remember the Templars back in the Crusades : foreign knights (mostly German) being hired by the pope to take Jerusalem.

And what about the (Catholic) Irish priests encouraging the revolution against a (Protestant) English King/Queen throughout the 20th century ? Or the Vatican encouraging an Anglo-Spanish war to remove Elizabeth I (a Protestant) from the English throne ?

I'm sure there is more, but that's all I can think of right now.

This is an oversimplification of history.

I could go into my little story on my religious beliefs, but it would mirror thousands and thousands of similar stories on how someone lost their faith, but no one should be picking on Maestros choice of religious reflection, nor find his displeasure at the acts of the Catholic Church insulting...

I agree. It's not about "displeasure" regarding the Catholic Church. That is fine, and perfectly respectable - even encouraged. It is about some of the comments throughout the thread, not really even Maestro.

He is entitled to his opinion of God just like I am and Eric is and Matt is.... To have faith in SOMETHING is still faith, and thats what it boils down to.... In my opinion, the severely over-driven religions are doing nothing more than trying to control its followers to the testaments and decrees of ancient times....


Its just not realistic anymore to act and behave the same way that religious supporters were taught 2000 years ago.... Like everything else, it should evolve...

In my opinion, it depends what exactly we're referring to. I believe that a lot of the teachings and morals from many religions are timeless across the board. I am also completely against the concept of moral relativity. I am afraid that many in the US operate without a moral compass... maybe that is because I grew up in NJ

Ive read this entire thread, including the links, and I still dont see how anyone can defend the Church in this instance... I wonder if the rapist was a Priest or a Deacon would such a display have happened???

It's a terrible situation. I think that what it really comes down to is the right of the unborn twins to life vs increased risk to the girl's life as the pregnancy evolves in addition to the incomprehensible emotional and physical pain and suffering.

Confess and ur un-excommunicated??? What would a 9 year old girl have to confess about her rape??? That the skirt she was wearing was too short?? It wasnt her choice to get raped, nor was it her choice to get the abortion....

The girl was not excommunicated.

Question tho, the Priests and religious types that are convicted/busted on their child rape/homosexual conquests, do they get excommunicated as well, and if so, do they get forgiveness if they confess they are scumbag motherfu*kers that took advantage of the innocent children of their Faith???

I personally would like to see punishments for sex offenders much more severe across the board, and priests are no exception.

 

[Lucky13]

No punishment is ever hard enough for sex offenders, especially when children are involved!

 

[Soren]

Maestro,

I wasn't really talking to you

It's just I've had a lot of run ins with Athiests, and somehow most of them are some of the most irritating "I know it all" types I've ever met. I was once asked by one wether I was religious, and being honest I responded by saying "Well, I believe in god", to which he responed by looking at me with a wierd face and said "Well I can't argue with religious people, they are blind to everything". He was trying to pick fight obviously, which I thought of as quite funny as he had no longer than 5min ago preached about how all athiests wanted peace acceptance, and how all wars in history were the results of religion. He also described religion as poison.

What he and many others fail to note however, is one of the many principle rules in this world, and that is: The best things in this world are often also the easiest to abuse.

Also remember we can only look so far, the best microscope has a limit and so does the best telescope, and thus no'one has yet to see the core of either what we're made of or what surrounds us. Thus by using that logic alone it makes as much sense to believe in god as it does not to.