Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
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The summer of 1993 I had the opportunity to spend a couple of weeks in Berlin visiting a college friend. Since it was during the 50th anniversary of WW2 there was a lot of documentary presentations and discussions on TV. What struck out to me then was that German television held tight to the narrative that the Eastern front was the most important theater in the entire war. The portrayal of the ferocity of the fighting and magnitude was eye opening. The Western Allies were definitely considered secondary. I found the discussion of about Allied bombing illuminating especially in the context of city bombing by the RAF constituting a war crime.
Relevance of Teutonic knights in 20th and 21st century??For those who wonder as to the relevance of the Teutonic Knights to the 20th or 21st Century, look into the history and current strategic relevance of the Kaliningrad Oblast.
I imagine the eastern threat was more existential.The summer of 1993 I had the opportunity to spend a couple of weeks in Berlin visiting a college friend. Since it was during the 50th anniversary of WW2 there was a lot of documentary presentations and discussions on TV. What struck out to me then was that German television held tight to the narrative that the Eastern front was the most important theater in the entire war. The portrayal of the ferocity of the fighting and magnitude was eye opening. The Western Allies were definitely considered secondary. I found the discussion of about Allied bombing illuminating especially in the context of city bombing by the RAF constituting a war crime.
Relevance of Teutonic knights in 20th and 21st century??
smh
Cthulhu saves.
Yes, my feeling from what was being shared/communicated was that there was real hate in the Eastern Front. Perhaps the most telling thing was how the Soviets commemorated their victory over the Nazis. In Vienna, they built a huge statue to the Soviet victory directly in front of the Russian embassy. In Berlin, on the other hand, the Soviets left the historic core of the city largely in-state as it was in June 1945. When I was there, restoration of the historic core had yet to begin. It was quite moving as a memorial and the message was unmistakeable.I imagine the eastern threat was more existential.
Most of the time, my impression is, he just sleepsCthulhu saves.
Yes, that and I think the Nazis were very good at propaganda, their propaganda definitely still lingers, and thanks to the uncomfortable fact that (theoretically former) Nazis ended up part of many western defense and intelligence establishments
With regard to aviation, the Germans started with a clear, major advantage. But it does seem like that advantage slipped to almost nothing, as Germans fell behind in every area - tactics, training, and kit. By 1944 I don't see much German superiority on the front line, or over it. In fact at that point, I don't think there was any way they could win.
Yes, I think the post-war situation with the cold war staring is is behind much of the whitewashing of many heinous crimes during the war. People have deservedly been put behind bars for much less, but expediency won over morality. Tom Lehrer even made a song about von Braun:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio
And how much of the "Rommel myth" was really based on facts, vs., say, Liddel Hart out to polish his own image?
With all this being said, however, it seems to me Germany is among the few nations that has managed to look back at what they did and be genuinely sorry about it. To the point this is perhaps seen to this day as excessive timidity in foreign policy, e.g. wrt supporting Ukraine.
Both Germany and Japan gambled on a short war. In such a scenario, no need to spend resources on R&D projects that won't result in anything useful in short order. Once the Allies managed to endure the initial onslaught and it turned into an industrial slogging match the superior industrial capacity of the Allies, as well as plentiful access to critical resources such as oil, turned the tide.
When it is about the military aircraft, Germany was stamping out the prototypes of many of those, while also trying to make aero engines and guns of different capabilities and levels of complexity. In any year of the war, including the 1st 24 months of the war when they were still dizzy after series of wins on the battlefield.Both Germany and Japan gambled on a short war. In such a scenario, no need to spend resources on R&D projects that won't result in anything useful in short order. Once the Allies managed to endure the initial onslaught and it turned into an industrial slogging match the superior industrial capacity of the Allies, as well as plentiful access to critical resources such as oil, turned the tide.
I think I have just found the secret of Germany's downfall.When it is about the military aircraft, Germany was stamping out the prototypes of many of those, while also trying to make aero engines and guns of different capabilities and levels of complexity. In any year of the war, including the 1st 24 months of the war when they were still dizzy after series of wins on the battlefield.
German procurement was certainly not the well planed picture it is often painted as.
Ironically in the summer of '44 German production reached its apex, after this the production plunged. The bombing may have been much more effective than thought.I think I have just found the secret of Germany's downfall.
The German supply officers and non-coms did an excellent job at first integrating and distributing an absolutely bewildering array of captured/commandeered weapons/vehicles/equipment (so beloved by modelers over the 70+ years) but the strain took it's toll and soon even the most hardened quartermasters started resorting to drink deal with the strain. Shortages meant that rarely could anything be gotten rid off (there was always some backwater rear area than needed something/anything) and shortages also meant even more stop gaps or substitute standard weapons and ammo, meaning longer hours, less sleep and more stress for the quartermasters and thus, more beer and wine consumption.
At some point they past the tipping point and the German supply system was being run by career alcoholic's due to the strain and mistakes became more and more numerous until the whole system collapsed.
Allied bombing is just an excuse/coverup
This is all a joke and is not to meant actually belittle any of the men (and women) who were trying their best on both sides.
German procurement was certainly not the well planed picture it is often painted as.
When it is about the military aircraft, Germany was stamping out the prototypes of many of those, while also trying to make aero engines and guns of different capabilities and levels of complexity. In any year of the war, including the 1st 24 months of the war when they were still dizzy after series of wins on the battlefield.
You were making talking about Germany (and Japan) having:They stamped out a lot of prototypes, and even low volume initial production. But did they actually manage to introduce a single new aircraft into service during the war that ended up contributing significantly to their war efforts, beyond the FW 190?
no need to spend resources on R&D projects that won't result in anything useful in short order
That a lot of these projects were flawed (be that slightly or wholly), and thus contributed next to nothing to the German war effort is beyond the point.
No, that's exactly the point. Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough. They evidently planned to win a short war with what they had at the outset. When that didn't happen, whatever plans they had to switch to improved types waiting in the pipeline where wholly inadequate, and with the exception of the FW 190 largely didn't happen.
A prototype is a long way away from having a new aircraft in volume production with at least the worst of the inevitable issues worked out. The adage about 90% of the effort remaining when you think you're 90% done applies.